Get home propulsion - strange ideas

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DDW

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This might be a walk on the wild side, skip to the next post if it isn't of interest.

I've got this small trawler and I come from a sailing background. In sailing, as long as the hull is still floating, there is usually a way to make it move: motor if the rig is gone, or jury rig something from the remains of the rig. Larger trawlers sometimes have twin engines, or a wing engine, or a PTO on a large genset that can be used for emergency propulsion.

The scenario I'm talking about is you are in a remote part of the PNW and a gremlin gets into the engine or a tree gets into the prop. As near I can tell, a small trawler will simply drift downwind until it hits something. There is the dinghy of course, and one could rig it to push slowly towards immediate safety. However it is gas powered, and I would usually have a very limited supply of gas - a few hours at most. A small light diesel outboard might solve the issue - you could motor for days - but such things don't exist.

Like most small trawlers, I have a 6KW diesel genset running off the main fuel tanks. It would run for weeks on the fuel onboard. Without significant redesign, a PTO isn't possible. But - there exist several vendors of electric outboards in the power range required. In principal, these could be powered nearly indefinitely by the genset. They are light, relatively small to stow, produce no drag when stowed. From vendors specs 5 KW or so will give you around 175 - 200 lbs of thrust. Hardly neckbreaking, but might move a 32-34' trawler at a few knots in calm-ish conditions. With time you could run hundreds of miles this way, if needed. 100 miles puts you much closer to civilization.

The only technical difficulty is these outboards run on 48 - 60 VDC, so either the motor would need to be changed out, or a suitable power supply constructed to convert 40 amps of 120VAC to 100 amps DC. The whole setup would cost a few thousand, far less than any other solution.

What's wrong with my thinking?

The easiest path would be to swap the DC motor for an 120V AC motor, and simply plug it into the wall plug (let's ignore the safety aspects for a moment, those are solvable). A variation would be to mount a 120V motor inside, allowing belt drive to the main shaft - but this requires the main shaft and prop to be functioning (as well as transmission and other issues). I kind of like the idea of the outboard as it is completely independent.
 
I'm gonna grab a cold one and see what happens. Interesting idea. A different tack (OK, bad pun!) might be to drop anchor when you get to a shallow enough area and get on the VHF to call for an assist.
 
Plenty of places up there where there is sparse VHF coverage, no cell coverage, and a tow ordered on the sat phone is going to take a 1st mortgage. This scenario is not all that likely, but I am always attracted to the idea of self sufficiency, when possible.
 
If you have a large enough house bank ( 8 x 12 volt ), you could take 4 batteries in series to run the outboard....and use the generator to charge the other 4 batteries. Use 4 while you charge 4, then switch.
 
A quick rule of thumb is 20lbs of thrust is created by 1 HP.

A 200lb thrust electric motor would be about 10HP.

Perhaps a new expensive DC motor can do that , but most cont. duty AC motors are REALLY !! heavy.
 
I like the idea of the electric outboard and looked at several different manufacturers a few years ago. The two issues I saw were propellers to small to be effective on anything but flat windless water and my concern about the durability of the lower unit under full load all the time. I just don't think they're going to survive a 100% power load for hours on end.

My conceptual solution would be to build an outboard style lower unit large enough to house a hydraulic motor direct coupled to a propeller. When needed, transom mount the unit, the hydraulic hoses have quick disconnects for easy portability, and run the unit off a hydraulic pump mounted to the front of the generator. While a person could take an outboard, remove the motor and just mount the hydraulic motor in place of it, I wanted to eliminate the unnecessary gearbox (and lost power there) and be able to turn a bigger flatter prop.

Ted
 
If you have a large enough house bank ( 8 x 12 volt ), you could take 4 batteries in series to run the outboard....and use the generator to charge the other 4 batteries. Use 4 while you charge 4, then switch.

Trouble is recharging the batteries takes far longer than discharging them. It would be more efficient to run wires.

A quick rule of thumb is 20lbs of thrust is created by 1 HP.

A 200lb thrust electric motor would be about 10HP.

Perhaps a new expensive DC motor can do that , but most cont. duty AC motors are REALLY !! heavy.
5 HP is about all a 6KW genset is likely to run for long. The 5 - 7 HP electrics are claiming that thrust - could be marketing puffery. Maybe reworking the DC motor to run at higher voltage, then just rectifying the AC would be a solution.
 
Not available in the US...yet. Probably bigger than you might want, not going to be cheap, but a sign of things to come, and what's available now


https://powerboating.com/yanmar-debuts-50hp-diesel-outboard/

:socool:

I've no doubt that a small diesel outboard could be built - in fact there are some odd ones overseas. Keeping the weight low is the challenge. If I could buy a 15-20 HP which was only a little heavier than a 4-stroke gasser, I'd use that on the dinghy and call it done. In the US, I think the EPA won't let it happen.
 
Maybe just build your own is an easier idea. Here is a small vertical air cooled diesel, in the pull start it weighs about 80 lbs. Clone that onto an outboard leg and it's heavy, but still manageable perhaps.
 
Why not get two 12v trolling motors and make some bracketry so they can click onto the transom. Steer by changing power on each, or cycle on and off.

Oversize your charger or build a 120Vac/12Vdc converter with a big transformer and big rectifier. Or go 24-36-48V, the transformer and rectifiers get smaller.

I towed a 36' sea ray with dead engines against the wind with a dink and a 2hp Evinrude. It was very slow, but it moved.
 
I've been on the water for about 60 years and lost propulsion twice. Both times with twin mains. Both propulsion losses were in the shaft/prop. Motored in on one engine.
Since you come from sail, in 1921 US sub R-14 ran out of fuel SE of Hawaii and rigged sails. Five days later made Hilo. The US Submarine R-14 - Under sail
 

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Outboard motor on swim platform? Works as long as you have enough gas.
 
Outboard motor on swim platform? Works as long as you have enough gas.

Gas is the issue - lots of diesel, not much gas.

It looks like Minn Kota will sell you pretty much just the motors. 24V and claimed to be 160 lbs of thrust. Also in the literature but not shown online is a 36V 200 lbs thrust version.

I'm away from my nautical library at the moment, in no wind I wonder what 160 or 200 lbs of thrust would do to a 20,000 lb trawler.
 
I always find these really interesting discussions.

I’d suggest starting with a basic energy analysis. Nothing fancy, just how much power do you need, and how much have you got. That’s typically the first tumbling block.

How much HP is required to move your boat at 3kts? What about 4 or 5? I think 3 is the bare min for a useable get home. That would probably hold position is bad conditions, and make progress otherwise. For kicks, say that’s 20hp, or about 15kw.
 
Oops, hit return too soon.

Right there you can see that your gen is way too small to be of much help. You 6kw gen 100% dedicates to propulsion would give you around 8 or 9 HP. Is that enough to move your boat at a reasonable speed?

Then the other issue is getting the power from the gen to your propulsion machine. I’m not sure what to power of something like a torquedo is, but maybe 3kw? So you would need 2 to match your gen output, and maybe as many as 4 to get acceptable propulsion.

Speaking of torquidos, it might be reasonable to have two battery packs per motor, and charge one while draining the other, swap batteries, and repeat.
 
Hows about a propane outboard? That is if you have propane on board already.
 
I went down the same road. Just shy of 10,000nm with no issues(knock on teak) it would have been a waste of money. But here was the discussion 3+yrs ago:

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/wing-engine-generator-combo-12483.html

This is new, similar to something I looked at but failed due to corrosion, would think its OK w/ reputable company:

https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/products/pod-drives/cruise-2.0-4.0-fp/M-1250-00.html

Still limited by gen though, and would need an industrial voltage conveter to handle load.

Good luck, will be watching....
 
What about using a modified hydraulic bow thruster? You could use quick connect lines and have pumps on both the main and gen.
 
I propose that it's a get home option, not a cruising option and if you have to anchor and wait for fair weather, so be it. Also, 2-3 kts should be acceptable if your fuel supply will allow the Gen to run long enough for you to get home.

Following
 
What about using a modified hydraulic bow thruster? You could use quick connect lines and have pumps on both the main and gen.
I like the idea except:
The propeller is to small
Probably need a 7HP+ unit
Doubt the lower unit was designed to have a multiple hour duty cycle

Ted
 
What about an electric motor (smallest possible depending on the size of the boat) powered by the generator that would drive the prop from a gear on the inner boat shaft? Main engine as an issue, put the prop in free wheeling, and electric drive will power the prop. Not sure I am clear about what I mean :)

L
 
What about an electric motor (smallest possible depending on the size of the boat) powered by the generator that would drive the prop from a gear on the inner boat shaft? Main engine as an issue, put the prop in free wheeling, and electric drive will power the prop. Not sure I am clear about what I mean :)

L
That could be done with an electric motor, gearbox reduction and likely a chain drive. This assumes the transmission, shaft, and propeller weren't the reason primary propulsion was disabled.

Ted
 
That could be done with an electric motor, gearbox reduction and likely a chain drive. This assumes the transmission, shaft, and propeller weren't the reason primary propulsion was disabled.

Ted
Ted, this is what I meant! Thank you to clarify :)

L
 
Oops, hit return too soon.

Right there you can see that your gen is way too small to be of much help. You 6kw gen 100% dedicates to propulsion would give you around 8 or 9 HP. Is that enough to move your boat at a reasonable speed?

Then the other issue is getting the power from the gen to your propulsion machine. I’m not sure what to power of something like a torquedo is, but maybe 3kw? So you would need 2 to match your gen output, and maybe as many as 4 to get acceptable propulsion.

Speaking of torquidos, it might be reasonable to have two battery packs per motor, and charge one while draining the other, swap batteries, and repeat.
We aren't talking about a "reasonable" cruising speed, just making progress towards civilization. 3 knots it actually pretty good, 75 miles/day. The question is what does it take to push a small trawler at 3 knots? Pretty sure 5 - 7 hp will do it, but I haven't tried that. Against any wind you'd be screwed, against a light current you could still make headway.
 
That could be done with an electric motor, gearbox reduction and likely a chain drive. This assumes the transmission, shaft, and propeller weren't the reason primary propulsion was disabled.

Ted

I think you could do that with a cog belt, which would be easily untensioned/removed. The complication is you would be driving the transmission (and many of them don't like this), and the prop and shaft have to be serviceable. None of those are a problem with the outboard.
 
Get a transformer to drop the voltage off the gen then rectify to DC and you have your DC power to run a DC outboard with no batteries needed.
 
The big issue with the small outboard gas or electric, is the diameter of the propeller. Simply, you need a significantly larger propeller turning at a much slower RPM to keep the propeller from cavitating each time the boat hits a small wave. A few outboard manufacturers make somewhat bigger propeller units with slightly higher gear ratios for pushing small sailboats. We need to get to about a 16" propeller and much taller gears to turn it much slower.

Ted
 
I would look at belt/chain drive to existing main shaft from a DC or AC electric motor.

The max size the genset could handle with normal alternator or charger capacity.

The main shaft or prop on a single is rarely compromised so bad that it can't be used separate from the engine.
 
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