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Old 12-20-2010, 09:27 PM   #41
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

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nomadwilly wrote:

...from a performance standpoint (as long as one dosn't pay for the fuel) gas is smoother, lighter and/or more powerful and produces far less noise.
Interestingly enough, the folks in Europe, who seem to be light years ahead of the US in terms of automotive diesel engines, have created diesel engines for vehicles that from the driver's point of view are every bit as responsive and quiet as gas engines in the same car.* For example when in France we always hire a Citroen C5, which is or was their top-of-the line passenger car.* While we don't specify the type of engine we have gotten both gas and diesel variants.* From a driver's perspective, I can't tell them apart.* The diesel is just as quiet, just as responsive, and just as powerful as the gas engined version we've hired.

Same thing with the Land Rovers we have hired in the UK.* We always end up with a diesel and it has no problems dealing with the 70-90 mph motorway speeds and, while it does have a bit of that diesel clatter, it is for all practical purposes as quiet as a gas engine.

As opposed to the ridiculous racket made by Dodge and Ford* diesel pickups, all of which sound even at idle like a 50-gallon oil drum filled with rocks being shaken on a giant paint mixer amplified through a Marshal stack.* If I had a vehicle that*made that hideous and loud*of a noise it would really piss me off.

A couple of years ago we did a bunch of filming at Air France's main cargo hub at Charles de Gaulle airport outside Paris.* Hundreds of highway trucks bring freight to the hub or haul it away every day.* European semi-tractors are every bit as powerful as US semis-- the main differences are their relatively short wheelbases and lack of big sleeper cabs, dictated in part by the narrow roads and cramped loading facilities they often encounter.* They are also very quiet compared to the typical Kenworth or Peterbuilt.

So either the Europeans are far superior diesel designers or the US diesel manufacturers*are just lazy.* I don't know*which it is--- maybe both, or maybe it's something else entirely.* But diesels can be made to be quiet and responsive if you know how.
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Old 12-20-2010, 10:14 PM   #42
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

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Marin wrote:But diesels can be made to be quiet and responsive if you know how.
Quite right.* The Europeans invented the diesel and perfected it.* Many American manufacturers have used their sytems under license.* The horrendous price of fuel over there has brought the diesel car to the head of the pack.* About 1/2 their cars are diesel.* Also Europeans as a whole are more concious of the care of their auto and many own them for a very long time.* Americans are more of a throw away society.

When it comes to the larger, more powerful diesels no one beats us.* I don't see alot of Manns or MTUs in boats anymore.* There were problems with them.* Our big over the road trucks are very powerful compared to most European models.* You can believe that it takes an exceptional amount of power to pull* those freight train looking rigs you see in your part of the country.* I don't see those in Europe.

Caterpillar has a great reputation for their large diesels worlwide.* However as far as cars go, the Europeans have it.* I have a Mercedes Diesel.* My last car was a Mercedes diesel.* The newer models have great torque, quietness, and fuel economy.* The E300D compares favorably with the E350 gas while getting about 35mpg.* By the way, it is not usually very hard to sell a Mercedes diesel.

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Old 12-20-2010, 11:23 PM   #43
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Well I've never seen a diesel that had any guts. When I want guts I'll break out my*455 Buick. Ain't no diesel gonna compare w that!
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:44 PM   #44
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Gee, guys, I never associated "performance" (in the sense of speed) with a trawler.* We don't need gasoline engines because we're not going faster than fat*sailboats.* Now then, don't all the advantages come to the diesel engine.
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Old 12-20-2010, 11:58 PM   #45
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

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Well I've never seen a diesel that had any guts.
Go to Europe.* You'll probably be amazed........

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Old 12-21-2010, 12:22 AM   #46
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Marin, you need to take a look at Ford's new 2011 F-Series pickups with their (not Navistar's) 6.7 liter diesel. I've been buying Ford Powerstroke's for my company since 1995. They've changed.... They are nearly as quite as a gasoline engine. They put out 400 hp with 800 lb/ft torque. I've timed 0-60 mph in about 7.5 seconds. Sets me back in my seat through the entire power curve. It continues to accelerate to 95 mph when a set point kicks in and saves me from my foolishness! No smoke. Very impressive.

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Old 12-21-2010, 12:24 AM   #47
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

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nomadwilly wrote:

Well I've never seen a diesel that had any guts. When I want guts I'll break out my*
455 Buick. Ain't no diesel gonna compare w that!
Eric, it looks as big (look at that hood/deck!)*as an aircraft carrier.* So, how many F4Fs, *SBDs and TBD/TBFs can it accommodate?* Doubt it gets much better mileage than Willy.

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Old 12-21-2010, 05:45 AM   #48
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

"the folks in Europe, who seem to be light years ahead of the US in terms of automotive diesel engines, have created diesel engines for vehicles that from the driver's point of view are every bit as responsive and quiet as gas engines in the same car."

And there in lies the RUB.

The newest diesels have 20,000 to 30,000 PSI in the fuel manifold , with a tiny leak the vaperized diesel is every bit as explosive as gasoline.
So all the newest Diesel boats will have to be fitted our as if they were gas boats.

Explosion proof starter , alternator , vent fans and every other bit of ER goodies will need protection.

"Gee, guys, I never associated "performance" (in the sense of speed) with a trawler. We don't need gasoline engines because we're not going faster than fat sailboats. Now then, don't all the advantages come to the diesel engine."

IF the "trawler" is used 100 or 200 hours a year as most rec motor boats do, gas would be the fuel of choice. Same cheap maint , and 1/4 to 1/6 replacement cost if killed due to lack of maint . Since a trawler may be 10 to 20 tons any car engine of 50 to 100hp (max 5hp/ton) at the breakers yard would be fine.

The good news is the Vampires , dead men attempting to force their rule , AKA Lame Ducks , may have overstepped their ability.

Instead of 15% Ethanol mandate for the farmers and state tax men , there is a movement to end the mandate ,0% and our cars , outboards and gas toys will be much easier to maintain.

Corn will drop 40% in price , but subsidies, as always will , as always keep our factory farms in the ca$h .

Better to give the farmers their welfare than continue to destroy our engines.
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:49 AM   #49
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

"A gasser should be REAL CHEAP, as in---real cheap.'

WEll then get on the stick and locate a trailer cruiser (similar to a Rossboro 25) max inside minimum outside.

Would be delighted to find a gasser with a blown engine so I can plop in my favorite V8.


My trailer hitch is ready!
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:51 AM   #50
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

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Moonstruck wrote:I don't see alot of Manns or MTUs in boats anymore.*
You need to get out and look at more boats. MANs and MTUs are the engines of choice on large fast yachts. They provide the best power to weight ratio and highest performance, particularly the MTUs.

They aren't just used on the thorobred boats either, they are common on cruising and charter boats that want high power and reliability in a smaller package than a heavy duty workboat engine.

If you really want performance there are a couple of Italian diesels that make you think of a RR Merlin.
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:53 AM   #51
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

To me, the term "fast trawler" simply does not compute.* We don't need it when "express cruiser" or "sportsfisherman" already properly define the type of boat required by the zoom-zoom crowd.
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:13 AM   #52
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

Yup, MTUs are alive and well in the off highway business too. Nordhavn is now supplying MTUs in many of their vessels.

In the US, Diesel in cars makes little sense IMHO because of the much higher diesel fuel cost as compared to gas, which erodes any MPG advantage. Europe does not have this price distortion. I have come close in the past few years to buying a Blutech MB, but chickened out -* I have owned several Mercedes. I gave up on them because of the high and frequent*maintenance cost. Five years ago their brake by wire systems turned an otherwise good vehicle into a cash*hole once the warranty disappeared.

For the past few years it has been Acura, Lexus and Infinti cars for me.* Every year I go look at MBs and BMWs and love the vehicles but hate the upkeep issues and costs. Now if I leased and threw them away every 2 - 3 years, an MB or BMW gasser would likely be in my garage.

But more important to me this morning* - Will My Snowblower Start? The Utah mountains are getting dumped on with Alta approaching 5 feet in the past two days. Skiing for Christmas!!

-- Edited by sunchaser on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 08:24:05 AM
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Old 12-21-2010, 07:57 AM   #53
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

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sunchaser wrote:

Yup, MTUs are alive and well in the off highway business too. Nordhavn is now supplying MTUs in many of their vessels.

-* I have owned several Mercedes. I gave up on them because of the high and frequent*maintenance cost.
OK, Sunchaser you and Rick B. got me on that one.* I will bow to your superior knowledge on Manns and MTUs.* I was going by the big sports fisherman models that had trouble especially with the v-10 Manns.

As for Mercedes, I have driven them for 40 years.* 2 gas, 2 diesel.* The diesels have been very low maintenance costs.* 325,000 mi. on the last, 220,000 on the present.* Our construction trucks are noisy, but when it comes to pulling trailers their torque and durability out do the gasoline trucks.* We routinely run them 4-500,000 miles and more*before any serious repairs.

I do not like the new engines with electronic controls and the extremely high fuel pressures like referred to by FF.* Yes, a fine mist of diesel can be explosive especially when it hits a hot turbo.* Dust can explode or flash*when suspended in air at the right ratio.* To me, electronic controls have no place on work engines.

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Old 12-21-2010, 08:16 AM   #54
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

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FF wrote: The newest diesels have 20,000 to 30,000 PSI in the fuel manifold , with a tiny leak the vaperized diesel is every bit as explosive as gasoline.
So all the newest Diesel boats will have to be fitted our as if they were gas boats.

Explosion proof starter , alternator , vent fans and every other bit of ER goodies will need protection.
Sorry FF, wrong as usual.

Smaller CR engines either completely enclose the fuel lines to contain a leak, isolate ignition sources from potential fuel spray, or use "flow fuses" ala Cummins that shut off a line that leaks.

Larger engines that meet IMO requirements use double wall fuel lines that contain any leak and trigger an alarm if one occurs.

The reality is that common rail systems maintain a high but constant pressure as opposed to "normal" systems that create high pressure pulses*which fatigue steel fuel lines and lead to the cracks you are worried about. The scenario you described is much more likely to happen on an older mechanical engine than a new CR electronic controlled one.*Several years of operating history has already proven this point.

When CR engines were introduced to the*recreational boat industry a*few years ago, the boating gurus were gving themselves joint problems waving red flags and claiming that boats were going to turn into IEDs. It simply hasn't happened*and your own scenario is simply uninformed and pointless fear mongering.*

-- Edited by RickB on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 09:18:45 AM
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:44 AM   #55
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

I still don't care for or want electronic controls, but that is the new world we live in.* We just got a truck out of the shop.* The repair was not much, but the time to find a bad wire in a harness was expensive.* Intermitent electrical problems are very hard to pin down.* Nothing is 100%.* If EIFS on homes could keep out moisture 100% of the time, it would be a great system.* It didn't and it wasn't.*

Yeah, fuel lines on mechanical engines take a good pounding, we just replaced one.* Fairly simple and cheap.* There seems to be no cheap repairs on the newer diesels.* I had a friend that nearly lost a boat to a busted fuel line on a mechanically controled*Perkins.* Fuel ignited when it hit the turbo.* Halon went off and saved the boat.* Nothing is 100%.
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Old 12-21-2010, 09:35 AM   #56
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

One of the main reasons for the success of MTUs in pleasure boats is that they provide the most powerful engine available to the pleasure boat fleet. I know a guy that had a 68ft Viking with 2400hp MTUs and he upgraded to the 74....if they made a bigger engine, he would have got it but there wasn't one available at the time(2 years ago). That may have changed. The biggest Cat at the time was 1800hp. BTW, I think MTU stand for "Mercedes Turbo Unit"....

My Yanmar makes 240hp with only 213CID.....more power per cubic inch than most gasoline engines!!!!
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:36 AM   #57
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

No Mark. The hood's not long. Driven a conventional Peterbuilt lately? Everything's relative. You say the buick's hood's long because you prolly drive a little car. Our roads are big enough for stretch limo's and the're much longer than Brown Bear (the Buick's name is Brown Bear). BB is big when I go to find a parking space though. I HATE those little parking stalls. Don't even like'em w my Toyota! We have 5 vehicles and by far the easist and most comfortable to drive is Brown Bear. By the way she gets 14 mpg** ...
twice what Willy gets. Hmmmm* a diesel truck engine w 400hp? Wonder if it would fit in BB? That would ruin the buick though. Ever seen a luxury car w a diesel in it? There's a reason for that.
CC*** ..looks like you have a fast trawler yourself. Or is it a cruiser? I don't think the word "trawler" is justifiable at all. Just because NT and then others styled their cruiser after tug boats is no reason to call them tugs either. All of these boats are heavy cruisers and all other names are just silly stuff like young girls saying ther'e going on "vacay". Some say "real boaters have sails" or "real boaters have engines" or "real men drive trawlers"**** ....cruisers are for dad's and Sissy's. Perhaps "trawler" came to pass as a defense against slow. The word may have brought heavy cruiser men from slow like an old man in a big black car to cool dudes. The word trawler brought the guys w the slow (like an old man) heavy cruiser out of the old man that's not "with it" to the gentlemanly cool dude category. Fast trawler is a "cake and eat it too" category. Since real north sea trawlers are big and tough that makes drivers of "trawlers" big and tough too. Young men go fast and old men go slow. Young men are cool** ...old men are not (except me). So lets give heavy cruisers a new cool and brawny name like (trawler) and make us old men cool. But I agree w you ConolyCove it's a bit silly and "fast trawler" is, perhaps" a bit over the edge into the stupid category.
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Old 12-21-2010, 11:16 AM   #58
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

Eric---

I believe--- but I could be mistaken-- that Bentley offers a diesel in at least one of their models. I seem to recall Jeremy Clarkson reviewing one on Top Gear, but I could be thinking of another make.

I agree with you about the "names" that have been drummed up for trawler-type boats. Virtually all of them were hatched up by the marketing folks, I think. A trawler drags a net around. That--- to me--- is the only correct use of the term. As I've mentioned before, even American Marine didn't use the term "trawler" to describe their Grand Banks line of boats. In their ads and literature they were always referred to as "Dependable Diesel Cruisers." The attached photo is the cover for the 19734 Grand Banks brochure (the boat pictured is identical to our '73 boat other than the radar mount).

I don't believe Tollycraft (speaking of gas-powered cruisers) ever used the term "trawler" to refer to any of their boats, although I hear plenty of Tolly owners today refer to their boats as "trawlers."

I think your term "heavy cruiser" is pretty accurate as long as people don't think you're talking about the USS Baltimore.* The term "trawler" conjures up rugged commercial fishing boats that routinely tackle the North Sea, Alaskan waters, and so on.* Seaworthy, strongly built, etc.* While I recall you don't really agree with this, the first "cabin cruisers" of what became known as "trawlers" had superstructures VERY loosely based on one of the many commercial fishboat configurations--- foward pilothouse or helm with an elongated main cabin aft of it, a small forward cabin with a V-berth, and an aft cabin where the fish holds and fishing gear were located on a commercial boat.

Saying you have a "trawer" sounded rugged and nautical, so the marketing folks jumped all over it.* Simply tacking the name "trawler" onto anything supposedly got potential buyers thinking about "tough" boatst that could take it.* So just about every boat configuration you could think of became "trawlers."* I've even heard the owners of some of the semi-planing Bayliner models like the 3288 and 3788 refer to their boats as "trawlers."

Now we have the tug-type boats, the Camano Trolls, etc. all being called "fast trawlers."* This is really a stretch since by definition--- the correct definition--- a trawler is by its very nature a pretty slow boat.* At least it is while it's fishing.

They're all "cabin cruisers" to me.





-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 12:21:56 PM
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:53 PM   #59
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Quote:
Baker wrote:

One of the main reasons for the success of MTUs in pleasure boats is that they provide the most powerful engine available to the pleasure boat fleet.*

BTW, I think MTU stand for "Mercedes Turbo Unit"....

MTU makes some awesome engines. I was on sea trials of the King of Spain's old*jetboat, the Corona del Mar that is fitted with a pair of MTU 16V538s that produce around 4500 horsepower each*with sequential turbocharging and cylinder cutout for efficient operation over a wide power range. They were a real treat to listen to.

I don't know if you were joking about the "Mercedes Turbo Unit" or not but the history of MTU is fascinating and has its roots in the aviation business and links to very high end automobiles ... the Maybach.

In 1909 Karl Maybach built a powerful and lightweight engine for Count Zeppelin and set up a factory to produce them in Friedrichshafen. They were specially designed to be "overcompressed" with large cylinder capacity to compensate for power loss at high altitudes. This was before the advent of supercharging.

After WW1 Maybach started building cars that became known as the "German Rolls Royce" because of their size and quality. When German rearmament began, Maybach built the engines used in the Panther and Tiger tanks as well as other panzers.

After the 2nd world war Maybach built its first diesels using the techniques that made their gas engines so powerful, mulitple valves, oil cooled pistons, and high performance turbocharging. These were used in patrol boats and locomotives. In the early 1960s Daimler Benz began to work with Maybach and later founded a joint company called Mercedes Benz Motorenbau.

Around 1970, Daimler-Benz, and MAN (Maschinenfabrik Augsburg Aktiengesellschaft) - the folks Rudolph Diesel went to with his idea of a new type of engine - got together and formed Motoren und Turbinen Union or MTU as it's now known.

Sorry if I bored anyone but the historical links in the development of the diesel engine are often fascinating and they explain how some of the techniques we use today (and sometimes believe are newly discovered) came to be.

MTU engines are used on many large yachts, especially the high performance designs and just to close the loop, during the boat show Monaco harbor is filled with MTU engines and the streets are lined with Maybach cars.

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Old 12-21-2010, 01:43 PM   #60
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Quote:
RickB wrote:

*
Baker wrote:

One of the main reasons for the success of MTUs in pleasure boats is that they provide the most powerful engine available to the pleasure boat fleet.*

BTW, I think MTU stand for "Mercedes Turbo Unit"....
MTU makes some awesome engines. I was on sea trials of the King of Spain's old*jetboat, the Corona del Mar that is fitted with a pair of MTU 16V538s that produce around 4500 horsepower each*with sequential turbocharging and cylinder cutout for efficient operation over a wide power range. They were a real treat to listen to.

I don't know if you were joking about the "Mercedes Turbo Unit" or not but the history of MTU is fascinating and has its roots in the aviation business and links to very high end automobiles ... the Maybach.

In 1909 Karl Maybach built a powerful and lightweight engine for Count Zeppelin and set up a factory to produce them in Friedrichshafen. They were specially designed to be "overcompressed" with large cylinder capacity to compensate for power loss at high altitudes. This was before the advent of supercharging.

After WW1 Maybach started building cars that became known as the "German Rolls Royce" because of their size and quality. When German rearmament began, Maybach built the engines used in the Panther and Tiger tanks as well as other panzers.

After the 2nd world war Maybach built its first diesels using the techniques that made their gas engines so powerful, mulitple valves, oil cooled pistons, and high performance turbocharging. These were used in patrol boats and locomotives. In the early 1960s Daimler Benz began to work with Maybach and later founded a joint company called Mercedes Benz Motorenbau.

Around 1970, Daimler-Benz, and MAN (Maschinenfabrik Augsburg Aktiengesellschaft) - the folks Rudolph Diesel went to with his idea of a new type of engine - got together and formed Motoren und Turbinen Union or MTU as it's now known.

Sorry if I bored anyone but the historical links in the development of the diesel engine are often fascinating and they explain how some of the techniques we use today (and sometimes believe are newly discovered) came to be.

MTU engines are used on many large yachts, especially the high performance designs and just to close the loop, during the boat show Monaco harbor is filled with MTU engines and the streets are lined with Maybach cars.*MTU = Motoren- und Turbinen-Union

*
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