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Old 12-19-2010, 09:56 PM   #21
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

Eric,
I'm here to talk trawlers and learn from you all and that will always be my reason for hanging out here! Truth be told, I do two things...I own a commercial real estate company (which is what makes me be able to afford to be a boater myself!) and yes, I am a yacht broker too and doing pretty darn good at it as well but shhh....that's our secret that I'm a broker! Boats are my passion and I guess I like selling things on land and sea. *

I think it depends on which diesel engines we are talking about. *If some Detroit Diesels, then yes, the noise is a major factor! *I've got a little 135hp perkins in our Monk and that thing is as about as quiet as a mouse. *Ok, maybe not THAT quiet, but pretty darn quiet for a diesel....not terribly louder than the twin 8.1 HO Crusaders I had in our Silverton. *Up on the bridge you really can't hear our engine at all and unless at too low of an RPM at idle, it's not bad in salon whether at idle or beyond. *Here's a vid from our flybridge:



And from our salon:



Both were taking @ about 7.5 knots and the noise you here from the bridge video is the sound of water, not an engine.


No doubt diesels are typically a good bit louder and rumblier but if you drive the same model one with gasers, the other with diesels, performance will just about always favor the diesels, unless you want an absolute quiet ride and no odor (gotta love that ODORLESS Carbon Monoxide!!).


Personally though, I think the writing is on the wall that gas engines in large boats is pretty much a disaster waiting to happen as we bring more E10 and soon E15 online, fuel prices climb, etc. *Gasers have their place and serve their purpose (i.e. great lake boats and I sell a lot of those type of larger lake boats in the 38-50' range) but 9 times out of 10, IMO, diesels win hands down. *I know I have no intention of ever owning a large gas powered boat again but that is just me! *I think Baker said it earlier...you can feel gas engines cringe at the thought of working hard while diesels want to go and go and go harder still.


From an economic standpoint give me 2 identical models of same age and equipment except one gas and one diesel and the diesel powered one will sell before the gaser 9.9 times out of 10 and that is a fact. *Exception to this would be large boats that are most often gas powered, say like the carver 406 aft cabin, or the sea ray 38 sundancer, etc. *I like to be model specific and the Tolly 43 is a 30,000 lb boat per specs, surely more after gear, fuel, and water. *That is a LOT of weight to push around with gas engines.


P.S. Only 3 tollycraft *43 sales in all of 2010- would you like to guess how many of those were gas powered? * (that would be zero!)


-- Edited by Woodsong on Sunday 19th of December 2010 10:57:27 PM
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Old 12-19-2010, 10:07 PM   #22
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

DavidM -- You say you wouldn't worry about a DD 8.2 - I take it you have owned and maintained one that is 25 years old?
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Old 12-19-2010, 11:45 PM   #23
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

The last thing I'd want in a trawler is a gasoline engine.* Trawlers and diesel engines are nearly synonomous.** They need each other.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:16 AM   #24
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

"Large, gas powered boats, particularly in this market, are very, very, very, very hard to sell, particularly if the preferred power plant are diesels."



This is purely a local problem.

On the great lakes almost every boat that CAN be moved with gas IS.

The short season , ease of maint , and lower maint costs , as well as the local desire to marina hop* AT SPEED! all is in favor of GAS.

Over the decades the lakes folks have learned how to live well and prosper in the tiny season they endure.

Underloading and slobbering is a DIESEL hassle from too light loads , not a gasser hassle.

A simple look at the number of gas boats vs diesels shows the EXPLOSION myth is Bull Sh/T.

A Mercruiser does have hassles with its cheapo exhaust , Crusaiders would be prefered if re-poweing.

"Will this engine/boat combination run at hull speed provide economical cruising?"

Economical cruising is NOT done at hull speed .

Hull speed is the sq rt of the lwl times 1.34 and is 2x or 3x as much fuel burn as using .9 to 1.15 as the* multiplyer.

The big gas engines are usually chosen where 200 hp or less (each) is required to get up on the plane to move rapidly to the next O'nite spot.

If you are heading 2000 mi to the Carib for the winter Gas would not be the best choice, for the usual 100 hour a year inshore boater , gas would be first choice.

Get and read Dave Pascoe's book before opening your wallet!.

-- Edited by FF on Monday 20th of December 2010 06:18:18 AM
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:31 AM   #25
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Surprisingly, diesel boats burn too. I saw the remains of 16 of them in Portland 5 years ago in a dock fire.

I'm with Fred and Eric, a well maintained gas vessel is just fine in the right short trip application - in fact quite superior to diesel for anything up to 34' or so in the typical Searay or Formula. A reasonably new gas Formula in the mid 30 foot range*with the latest*EFI big block V8s is one very fine vessel for lake or FL fun. High speed diesels, in these same vessels,*above 250 hp with outdrives have been a maintenance headache.

The "explosion" of outboard sizing and numbers on an Intrepid or Yellowfin are another gas phenomena. And this is with in excess of 300 gallons of fuel in the bilge of these 70 mph beauties.

As noted by Woodsong and others, the bigger issue today is the alcohol political lobby for mandating E-10 or 15 in the US. The latest* bills before Congress*extends this largess. The issue is well beyond boats as all too many cars and pickups older than 2006 (this is according to latest from EPA) are at risk for fuel system issues.

One thing for sure, the Tolly*43s and 44s that have racked up 2 - 3000 hours on their 25 year old*454s are a testament to gas in a big boat. And I would guess there are about about 1.5 + million inboard gas vessels, older than 20 years and*larger than 20 feet operating in NA.

All this diatribe aside, unless for conversion purposes, I would not buy a larger Tolly with gas for salt water distance cruising. Do not, I repeat, do not venture into a Tolly with DD 8.2s without good hands on skills for diesel and cooling system maintenance or a big wallet.
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:53 AM   #26
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

No doubt gas engines have their place and serve their purpose...I would just hesitate to have a 43 Tolly with gas engines when right now on the market you can get the same boat with diesels, preferably the 3208's.
Saying all of this though, I am sure owning a 43 Tolly with gasers would still be fun and if bought at the right price could very much be worth it....just make sure you buy it right I guess is all I am saying.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:21 AM   #27
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Never seen a diesel boat go BOOM... Gasoline boats exploding is NOT a myth. ANd if you think that, you are likely the same dumbass that smokes cigarettes while putting gas in your car because you haven't exploaded..... YET!!!! You get on a gas boat and read all of the placards reference blowers and such. You get on a diesel boat and no such placards exist. An engine room blower is NOT even required on a boat with diesel engines. IT IS REQUIRED on a gas boat with inboard engines....complete with placards on how to operate it. I wonder why!!!
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:25 AM   #28
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Actual numbers for a conversion of a 39 Angel from Ivecos to Cats: over 100k. Could have been more but the owner found a pair of Cats for cheap. He got started before knowing all the things that had to be done: Engine beds, Water lines relocated, Exhaust runs moved and increased diameter, electrical supply moved and redone, shafts moved and increased in diameter, new props, hatches enlarged. Etc.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:29 AM   #29
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

A pace 36 that was on sale here did a Yanmar repower which also included an 8kw generator....$85k....TTL out the door.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:56 AM   #30
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

I saw* a beauty of a gas fire at Lake Powell a few years ago - at the gas dock as a houseboat was refueling. Old gas fill hoses the culprit. Years ago in St Louis a house boat burned with leaking fuel tanks, - caused by a jealous wife shooting into the boat as the husband and his secretary lunched aboard.

The old boat gas issues will dramatically escalate unless the government backs off the ethanol loading - which likely won't happen. But with new boat gas sales outpacing diesel about 50 to one, and with half drunk smokers and ill maintained boats galore, gas BOOMs will continue to happen as you note John.
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:26 AM   #31
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

Definitely agree it is an owner/maintenance issue. The event I witnessed was of a 28ft Carver express cruiser. They had "run out of gas". They received a fuel drop from Boat US and then started the boat.....KABOOM!!! The skipper knew he had enough gas when he left the dock but didn't think about the possibility of all of his gas being in the bilge instead of the tanks. Anyway, we were about a half mile away when we saw the mushroom cloud of flames go up and then felt and heard the concussion of the explosion. We "sped" over at 8kts(all my P29 could do)...and literally, the only thing left of the boat was burning pieces raining out of the sky...hollywood could not have been prouder.

The only thing that saved the lives of the 3 people on board was the fact that they were all topside and were blown clear of the schrapnel and the fact that BoatUS and the USCG and Lifeflight acted so quickly. *They were severely burned and limbs were lost.


-- Edited by Baker on Monday 20th of December 2010 10:31:11 AM
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Old 12-20-2010, 06:28 PM   #32
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

I agree that a gas boat has a MUCH higher explosion hazard of a diesel boat... but how many diesel boaters think they are safe... and have propane aboard ( and no bilge blower as they are not required)... I have been in that category. My new boat is gas... not my first choice but it's OK for it's and my use of the current boat. But I do a manual test of the engine space prior to lighting off the monsters... and I am installing a gas fume detector next... better safe than sorry.
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:27 PM   #33
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

I fished for years in Hawaii on a twin engine gas boat (Uniflite). I didn't think anything of it at the time, and we were very careful to run the engine room blower as well as open the hatches and do a sniff test before starting the engines.

But I would not want gas engines in a boat like ours. There are too many things in the engine room--- water pumps, relays, battery connections, etc. that can cause sparks. I suppose all these things are available in sparkless versions. But based on my experience with vehicle engines (and our boat engines) there are too many opportunities for fuel leaks or seeps to make me want to have gas lines, carburetors or injection systems in a trawler-style boat.

I have no doubt gas engines can be operated safely and trouble-free. A lot of people have been doing it for a lot of years. And it's not like gas-powered boats are exploding left and right. More boat fires are caused in this area by electric cabin heaters than exploding gasoline fumes on engine starts. But I would prefer to not even have the potential for a problem of this kind in my boating life. Diesels eliminate the problem so that, in my opinion, is the way to go for boats like ours with enclosed engine spaces and lots of electrical accessories.

I don't equate having propane on a boat as being the same risk as having gasoline engines. A propane system is invariably above deck and is easily accessible. For example we make it a practice to shut off the propane tank valve whenever we aren't on the boat. It's very easy to do. But stuff in an engine room can more easily be overlooked or go unnoticed. A little fuel weep on the outboard side of an engine in a twin engine boat can be totally overlooked for a long time.
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:57 PM   #34
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Quote:
hollywood8118 wrote:

I agree that a gas boat has a MUCH higher explosion hazard of a diesel boat... but how many diesel boaters think they are safe... and have propane aboard ( and no bilge blower as they are not required)... I have been in that category. My new boat is gas... not my first choice but it's OK for it's and my use of the current boat. But I do a manual test of the engine space prior to lighting off the monsters... and I am installing a gas fume detector next... better safe than sorry.
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Hollywood, that is the way I feel abou propane.* When we had a trawler it came with a propane stove.* I intalled a remote shutoff and a gas detector.* I was still slightly uncomfortable with it.* I felt like I was almost back to orperating a gasoline powered boat.* I love to cook with gas, and have it at home.* The present boat is electric.* We have to run the gen set to charge the batteries so it is not that much trouble to cook with electric.

I have often wondered why CNG is not more available.* It is lighter than air, and is probably considered safer on boats then propane.* It is used on some boats in Europe.

*
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Old 12-20-2010, 07:58 PM   #35
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

The position of the ER is of primary importance if gas is the fuel. The ER must be outside the cabin space. Look at all the popular fast gas powered boats and mostly you will find the ER accessed by lifting a hatch in the cockpit area, open to the outside. Once your ER migrates inside, as in most of our trawlers, gas is way too dangerous. As marin points out, way too any spark extras in our ERs. Even with a bilge blower, the volume of the ER is way too much if under the cabin sole, for any Bilge blower to guarantee to remove the danger. If the volume of the ER is mostly filled by the engines the BB will have a better chance of doing something useful.
Fire is a real possibility, even on a diesel powered boat, so don't increase your risk by putting gas in an ER under the main cabin.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:19 PM   #36
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

Quote:
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*I intalled a remote shutoff and a gas detector.* I was still slightly uncomfortable with it.
I don't blame you.* We wouldn't trust one of those remote propane shutoff valves any farther than we can spit.* Fortunately our boat was built before such things were invented.* So the propane line in our propane locker on the flying bridge is fitted with a large, very positive*manual shutoff valve that is operated by a handle in the galley overhead.* We keep this valve closed unless we are actually using the stove or oven.* It has become automatic to us to turn off the stove or oven and then reach up and turn off the manual valve in the propane locker.

In addition to this we always turn off the propane tank itself whenever we leave the boat.

So we have no qualms at all*about having a propane range.* With the propane*system mechanically*turned off except when we're actually cooking something we don't feel there is any risk from the system at all.* But if we had one of those electric relay shutoff valves we would always be wondering if it had really shut off.* We've heard one too many tales from boat owners about these relay shutoffs failing to shut of the propane properly or completely to warrant having any faith in them at all.

This is a personal preference, obviously, but an electric galley is completely unacceptable to us regardless of the type, size or age*of the boat.* If a boat was otherwise perfect for us but had an electric galley we would not buy it.* We don't want to be tied to having to run a generator every time we want to cook something.* Plus my wife absolutely detests cooking with electricity so would want no part of an electric galley even if the power was noiselessly available.

Fortunately it's easy to find a boat with the type of galley one prefers, be it propane or electric.

-- Edited by Marin on Monday 20th of December 2010 09:25:18 PM
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:20 PM   #37
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Hollywood, I also could not agree more about propane! As you know, I just yanked our old propane stove out of our Monk and replaced it with a 2 burner electric cooktop! I just didn't want to have to worry about it at all and like Moonstruck said, we are running our generator in a.m. and p.m. to charge the batteries so no big deal. After having to always be aware of fumes with our previous gas boats, I really just did not want to have to keep worrying about stuff like that again on our Monk. Of course....I'll probably still have to worry about it if I ever raft up with gas powered boats!
Keith, if you look @ most larger has powered boats, either aft cabin motoryachts or sedans, you are going to find 95% of the engines are under the cabin and not out in the cockpit as putting them too far aft makes for a stern heavy ride.
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Old 12-20-2010, 08:40 PM   #38
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Marin, your manual shut off is a good system.* It would definitely make me rest easier.* The remote shut off I had was a solonoid that had to be energized to be in the open position.* When the switch turned off the spring would slam the valve shut.* We could hear the click as it shut.* There probably could be something caught in the valve to keep it from closing all the way, but not likely.* What I most worried about was the line cracking from vibration.* It had a 1/4 or 5/16" line of solid copper similar to what Woodsong's son cut out.* Being in construction, I am familiar with the problems that copper can have with corrosion and cracking.* Today we use some much better flexible gas piping lines.* It is very expensive, but much superior.* Don't know if it is rated for propane.* If it is any propane on my boat would be replumbed with it.
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:09 PM   #39
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Gasoline Engines in a 43

Didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. And I didn't think of the ethanol issue. Just that gas IS an option and from a performance standpoint (as long as one dosn't pay for the fuel) gas is smoother, lighter and/or more powerful and produces far less noise. For market value it sucks. For safety it sucks. For fuel economy it sucks. And the ethanol sucks. Beyond that it's clearly superior. Not to worry I'm not converting to gas nor do I think anyone else on the forum should convert. Thirty to 50' pleasure boats were almost all gas in the 50s. Diesel engines were too expensive, heavy or didn't produce enough power and that's still true to some extent today. Diesel will never quite match gasoline and I don't think the gap will become noticeably smaller either. But if I was given the choice of gas or diesel (let's say Yanmars or Crusaders) on the previously mentioned Tolly for a trip up here and back and both boats had nice quiet lift mufflers I'd say both boats would be very close to equal performers except for the safety factor * *...so I would go for the diesel boat almost entirely*on account of the safty issue. This is, by the way, only a discussion item * *..not an action item.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 20th of December 2010 10:09:57 PM
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:20 PM   #40
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RE: Gasoline Engines in a 43

Tony:
Bad choice.
I do CCGA inspections at my YC. Yes, there are a few gassers with the engines under the cabin. Doesn't make it right.
Most are out back.
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