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Old 12-23-2012, 01:02 PM   #141
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Those are good tests you did, Marin. Thanks for posting timed results.
Just keep in mind that the time it takes a shaft to come to a stop after shifting into neutral will depend on the friction in the driveline-- the cutless bearings and such. So don't assume that because the shafts in our boat take about two seconds to come to a stop from idle rpm that's how long it will take in your boat. Best to measure it yourself in your own boat.
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:11 PM   #142
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Just keep in mind that the time it takes a shaft to come to a stop after shifting into neutral will depend on the friction in the driveline-- the cutless bearings and such. So don't assume that because the shafts in our boat take about two seconds to come to a stop from idle rpm that's how long it will take in your boat. Best to measure it yourself in your own boat.
Must admit I have never done a time trial such as this on any boat. That said... I never shift into gears unless at low idle and the time from neutral to next gear is a couple to a few seconds, or in an emergency at a bit higher idle, which seldom occurs.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:06 PM   #143
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Marin you don't have to wait for the prop shaft to comet a complete stop at all. Just getting the speed of everything fairly close is all that matters. Actually my shaft continues to rotate slowly while tied to the float. And it will survive many reversals at high speed but it's not good for it. In an emergency just shift. Do some idle shifting at rest and observe what the shaft does.

I think ther'e is one point that I don't think is covered yet and that is one should (when reversing) bring the throttle idle and let the engine speed slow before shifting into neutral. The engine will (I think) slow the prop and shaft better than the water over the prop depending on what you're doing of course.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:17 PM   #144
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Marin you don't have to wait for the prop shaft to comet a complete stop at all.
You don't have to but it will prolong the life of the transmission if you do. And since in the 14 years we've been running this boat we have yet to feel the need to get into any frantic shifting, pausing a few seconds in neutral before shifting to the opposite gear has never been a problem.

We've never found that things happen so fast in this kind of boating--- even when docking in strong winds--- that we've felt the need to frantically shift between forward and reverse. There has always been enough time to pause in neutral on the way through.

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Actually my shaft continues to rotate slowly while tied to the float.
Ours don't.

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Do some idle shifting at rest and observe what the shaft does.
Ummm...... that's what we did. As i said, it takes about 2 seconds for our shafts to stop rotating when they are turning at idle rpm.

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...one should (when reversing) bring the throttle idle and let the engine speed slow before shifting into neutral. The engine will (I think) slow the prop and shaft better than the water over the prop depending on what you're doing of course.
That is what we do. We NEVER shift a transmission either into or out of neutral unless the engine it's attached to is at idle rpm. The BW Velvet Drive manual says to never shift at an rpm higher than 1,000 but common sense and knowing how this transmission is constructed says the slower the transmission is turning when it's shifted the better.

The other thing that's bad for it is "easing" it into gear. Slamming it suddenly into gear is bad, too, so the way the proper technique was described to me was a "positive, firm movement of the shift lever from neutral all the way forward or back."
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:21 PM   #145
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The first marine application was in 1903, about 20 years prior to the first rail application.
really. They had......and why not. Back then all heavy trucking in the USA was done by electric trucks.

Thanks Rick

Merry christmas!!

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Old 12-23-2012, 05:29 PM   #146
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There were electric road and rail vehicles and a couple of little electric boats but there weren't any diesel-electric boats until 1903 and there weren't any diesel-electric trains until about 20 years later.
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Old 12-23-2012, 05:47 PM   #147
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There were electric road and rail vehicles and a couple of little electric boats but there weren't any diesel-electric boats until 1903 and there weren't any diesel-electric trains until about 20 years later.
so looks like maybe we done gone full circle?
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:13 PM   #148
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Back then all heavy trucking in the USA was done by electric trucks.

Don't think so. The power and range of electric technology for vehicles was very limiting, particularly back then. When forklifts started appearing in, IIRC, 1927, they were electric powered as were a number of cars.

But look up the history of electric vehicles and while there were a lot of example in the first decade or so in this country, the "craze" had died out by about 1920 and I think you'll find that trucks, at least not the larger ones, were never part of it in any significant numbers. The trucks used in large numbers in WWI were gasoline powered, for example.

Here's a little movie showing some examples of trucking in the first part of the 20th century. Nary an electric powered truck among them.

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Old 12-24-2012, 11:01 AM   #149
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They didn't have lithium polymer / lithium ion battery, AC brush-less motors, or high frequency current controllers back then either.

It's more about money these days. It would be very easy to build a hybrid boat these days (especially a trawler). Assuming your pockets were deep enough.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:23 AM   #150
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so looks like maybe we done gone full circle?
No, but some folks are going around in circles.
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Old 12-24-2012, 11:43 AM   #151
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SomeSailor said:
"It would be very easy to build a hybrid boat these days (especially a trawler)."
  • Yes, but why?
  • Who would buy it?
  • It would be less energy efficient than a diesel with a gearbox unless - you equipped it with a large solar array, cruised nearer the equator and had corporate/government support.
If you have the financial means, are a blue water cruiser and really desire to get energy efficient, buy a Dashew FPB.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:45 PM   #152
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Don't think so. The power and range of electric technology for vehicles was very limiting, particularly back then. When forklifts started appearing in, IIRC, 1927, they were electric powered as were a number of cars.

But look up the history of electric vehicles and while there were a lot of example in the first decade or so in this country, the "craze" had died out by about 1920 and I think you'll find that trucks, at least not the larger ones, were never part of it in any significant numbers. The trucks used in large numbers in WWI were gasoline powered, for example.

Here's a little movie showing some examples of trucking in the first part of the 20th century. Nary an electric powered truck among them.

That a neat video. Was in a Nova documentarty on trucking that heard of electric being the primary power for trucks in the city back then. I think they said that electric was soon to be replaced by gas as the roads were improved. That blurb stuck in my head because i would have never thought elecric anything was very common back then. I used to buy batteries from a wholsaler, Hobb's Batteries, in Sacramento Ca. that had a very nice plush old car from the twenties in there show room. The story was that two sisters had owned the car since new and used it untill the forties when they last one passedd away leaving it to
Hobb's. They informed me that electric car had been very common but as time went on less and less of them were sold with the last manufacturer going out of business in the late thirties. Hobb's had been in business since before 1900 and they went out of business in about 1990 and i dont know what happeded to the car. Was so beautifully built. I'm gonna make an effort to find her and if i do i will pot info.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:39 PM   #153
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SomeSailor said:
"It would be very easy to build a hybrid boat these days (especially a trawler)."
  • Yes, but why?
  • Who would buy it?
  • It would be less energy efficient than a diesel with a gearbox unless - you equipped it with a large solar array, cruised nearer the equator and had corporate/government support.
I said easy... I meant that from a technical stand, but not a good business idea.



You could manage with a much smaller motor generator. With electric energy so cheap, you could fuel your boat at the docks, augment that with a large on board genset and battery bank. You would eliminate much of the redundancy we have aboard now.


It's about money and infrastructure though. Cost wouldn't work in today's world, there is no infrastructure for power out there and the ideal hull would be a long, slender, full-displacement vessel of some sort. Probably a motor-sailor at that.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:34 PM   #154
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[/LIST]I said easy... I meant that from a technical stand, but not a good business idea.



You could manage with a much smaller motor generator. With electric energy so cheap, you could fuel your boat at the docks, augment that with a large on board genset and battery bank. You would eliminate much of the redundancy we have aboard now.


It's about money and infrastructure though. Cost wouldn't work in today's world, there is no infrastructure for power out there and the ideal hull would be a long, slender, full-displacement vessel of some sort. Probably a motor-sailor at that.
You are both correct, but:

I may buy it for one, if it were properly designed. Keep in mind i have worked in in industries trying to clean up mans garbage culture since i stopped building hospitals in the mid 80's.

If i had the money i am sure i could engineer a marine electric propulsion systen for displacement speeds that would be very economical. And like mentioned above it would invole several tecnologies none of which have advanced to the point at which they can go solo. The technology is there and has been since the early 1900's as pointed out by others. Just with so much abundant cheap crude why bother, well untill now that is
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Old 12-24-2012, 06:28 PM   #155
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It would be fun to have a trawler that could be driven for say 8-10 hours on battery and be able to run as a hybrid as well (if needed). If you could operate autonomously for a few weeks it would be cool.

These guys have a cool system. It's a serial hybrid electric.

http://regennautic.com/images/ReGen_...r_Oct_2010.pdf

Maybe someone will develop a generator / motor setup that replaces a transmission and could be drug as a regenerative supply, or powered to provide propulsion.

The problem is as you say though... dino fuel is way too cheap. (for now)
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:19 PM   #156
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It would be fun to have a trawler that could be driven for say 8-10 hours on battery and be able to run as a hybrid as well (if needed). If you could operate autonomously for a few weeks it would be cool.

These guys have a cool system. It's a serial hybrid electric.

http://regennautic.com/images/ReGen_...r_Oct_2010.pdf

Maybe someone will develop a generator / motor setup that replaces a transmission and could be drug as a regenerative supply, or powered to provide propulsion.

The problem is as you say though... dino fuel is way too cheap. (for now)
not sure about this system.It sounds good but they seem to flirt around the edges makeing claims then passing them by. Like they mention a 42 gb but they finish saying their systems are for 60-120 foot vessels with no pix of the gb mentioned or links to other info I will contact them to see what the truth is. Thanks for the link

and merry christmas everyone
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Old 12-25-2012, 07:43 AM   #157
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could be drug as a regenerative supply, or powered to provide propulsion.

Sailboats tried this but only in a gale will the loss of speed not be very bothersom

Sail at 6K and drop to 5K to charge and your speed loss is very noticable.

Only bu dragging a tiny prop has it worked , little speed loss , but little batt charge too.

No free lunch , regardless of the Washington view.
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:02 AM   #158
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As for carbon, why not use a fuel additive to keep the carbon build up in check? I've beern doing that for years in my D pickups and cars.
Which additive(s)?
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Old 12-25-2012, 08:02 AM   #159
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For a nice Christmas present bflloyd, check this out.


Greenline Hybrid
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Old 12-25-2012, 09:41 AM   #160
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No free lunch , regardless of the Washington view.
Not claiming a free lunch. With twin engines, it appears they can drop off pure electric and use one diesel motor to drive the boat, the other to charge the battery bank. The screw on the dragging side is turning the electric motor backwards, adding charge to the bank as well.

Once recharged, you shut down the diesel drive and you're ready to go again on battery. With the right sized generator, and large enough battery, your range is greatly extended.

It's the theory behind every serial hybrid out there. The Chevy Volt is a serial hybrid.

The problem is in the infrastructure of charging stations and there's no money in it (much like the Chevy Volt). Chevy is losing thousands on each they sell.
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