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Old 12-17-2012, 03:11 PM   #41
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On a long haul, the tides will be a wash. You ride an flood for 4 hours and an ebb after that. Your average speed would be unaffected. (Unless of course you chose to run against the tides more than with them)
That's the theory but in talking to a people over the years who've made that trip, particularly in slow boats, it doesn't work out that way. Partly due to the nature of the course itself where, like in the San Juan and Gulf Islands, even when the overall water flow is ebbing or flooding there are sections where you'll be going with, across, or against it, and depending on what section you are traversing at the time and the state of the tide at that time you may get more against than with.

And also because partway up up the whole system goes the other way.

But the people in our club who have made the trip in sailboats (under power almost exclusively) and in cruisers have all told me the runs usually took longer than they had calculated and they burned more fuel than they had calculated.

I don't know the fuel capacity of that 36' troller Donna I posted the photo of earlier. But its little gas engine-- and I'm sorry I don't remember the make; the owner told me-- must be really miserly with fuel if he could make it up the Passage without needing to refuel. I think it's just a five or six knot boat. Perhaps he really worked the currents carefully to be in his favor as much as possible. He told me people often repowered boats like this but he got it with the original engine and kept it that way.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:16 PM   #42
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Yeah... and it's uphill both ways in the snow...

Really?

I think you'd argue with a fence post if given the opportunity.
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Old 12-17-2012, 03:23 PM   #43
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No, just trying to convey accurate info in a media where there is precious little of it and what little there is is often too simplistic and general to be of any actual use to anybody.
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Old 12-17-2012, 04:54 PM   #44
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Art said:

"For a “Toy Boat” I just can’t see reasoning behind this! Unless ya gots $$$$ to burn and no place of constructive value to put it!"

To me, and most others on this Forum as evidenced by another current thread, a boat is indeed of constructive value and a great place to pi$$ money away. If I don't blow it on boats and such, those so listed in the will sure as heck will and have all the fun.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:01 PM   #45
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[
Art said:

"For a “Toy Boat” I just can’t see reasoning behind this! Unless ya gots $$$$ to burn and no place of constructive value to put it!"

To me, and most others on this Forum as evidenced by another current thread, a boat is indeed of constructive value and a great place to pi$$ money away. If I don't blow it on boats and such, those so listed in the will sure as heck will and have all the fun.
Good point! sc
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:40 PM   #46
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Marin says;
"There ya go again Marin listening to other people when you should be listening to your own brain.

On a long haul the tides will be a wash. SomeSailor is absolutely right. HOW COULD IT BE ANY OTHER WAY. The only difference is that when bucking current there comes a time when there's no movement at all or one even goes backwards but when going with the current one just goes faster. But if you keep going (as I did on my trip so) 50% of the time you'll be bucking and 50% of the time you'll be running with it. But this has not got to do w gas engines. So start a new thread if needed.

SS if the fence had anything to say he would.

So it looks like the only reason the gas engine shouldn't be considered for a trawler is because of the safety issue.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:59 PM   #47
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Marin says;
"There ya go again Marin listening to other people when you should be listening to your own brain.

On a long haul the tides will be a wash. SomeSailor is absolutely right. HOW COULD IT BE ANY OTHER WAY. The only difference is that when bucking current there comes a time when there's no movement at all or one even goes backwards but when going with the current one just goes faster. But if you keep going (as I did on my trip so) 50% of the time you'll be bucking and 50% of the time you'll be running with it. But this has not got to do w gas engines. So start a new thread if needed.

SS if the fence had anything to say he would.

So it looks like the only reason the gas engine shouldn't be considered for a trawler is because of the safety issue.
Eric - Pretty much! That is is the Captain does not feel competent to handle items related to the gas issue.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:16 PM   #48
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Yes Art.
Often times we do things that don't stand up to objective analysis because we have strong emotional issues regarding it. Trawlers seem heavy duty and it would seem they should be powered by a heavy duty engine and diesels have that reputation of being heavy duty.

If I was going to put an engine in a tug boat, a fish boat or a bus I'd go w diesel but on a pleasure boat that does not need an engine that lasts longer than a good gasser the gasoline engine could be the best choice for the trawler.

But I think almost nobody's going to do that because of emotional reasons or notions trawlers will remain diesel. Unless the notions change and I don't see that happening soon.

I just wanted to kick this around to see if I was imagining things. And because I'm analytical and like a dark horse I could'nt resist. Thanks all.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:14 PM   #49
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Yes Art.
Often times we do things that don't stand up to objective analysis because we have strong emotional issues regarding it. Trawlers seem heavy duty and it would seem they should be powered by a heavy duty engine and diesels have that reputation of being heavy duty.

If I was going to put an engine in a tug boat, a fish boat or a bus I'd go w diesel but on a pleasure boat that does not need an engine that lasts longer than a good gasser the gasoline engine could be the best choice for the trawler.

But I think almost nobody's going to do that because of emotional reasons or notions trawlers will remain diesel. Unless the notions change and I don't see that happening soon.

I just wanted to kick this around to see if I was imagining things. And because I'm analytical and like a dark horse I could'nt resist. Thanks all.
Eric, you're a forum champ! Each to their own and own to their each, regarding choice of power source... or anything else on a boat, for that matter - - > LOL

This has been an interesting thread you started and hopefully even more input will be brought forth. When day comes that we up-size to a larger boat (45 to 65') for extensive coastal cruising I currently imagine that newer version diesel power will be my engine(s) of choice. Till then, our Tolly’s simple gas engines are just fine for the amount of cruising we like to accomplish.

BTW: Being a careful Captain, each time before turning any electricity or other energy sources on aboard when we first board after boat's been left idle for some time (at night I use flashlights hanging at the ready) I always open salon floor hatches, lean way in, and give it a "deep sniff test". Then blowers on for ten minutes, then electric cord hooked to dock and electric power item activated on aboard. Also, even if only shutting engines off for a few minutes I always turn on blower before restart, same for genset. And, just outside slider doors I have perfect access to exterior hull vents just under gunnels where I get direct blower air-way exhaust for sniff tests. All our hoses and fittings are like new with connections kept tight. Being a consistent early riser, there is nary an early morning time-slot when we are out and about that I’m not in the engine compartment checking everything twice... just makes me happy and starts my boating day off with complete confidence that mechanical and fuel items are A-OK for another day!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:09 PM   #50
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Marin says;
"There ya go again Marin listening to other people when you should be listening to your own brain.

On a long haul the tides will be a wash. SomeSailor is absolutely right. HOW COULD IT BE ANY OTHER WAY.
If this was an armchair theory class--- which I guess this forum is most of the time--- I would totally agree with you. I've not taken a boat all the way up the Inside Passage so I can't argue the point from direct experience. I have always assumed the currents would cancel themselves out over that distance as far as their effect on your fuel usage is concerned.

But I can tell you that everyone we have talked to directly about cruising the Inside Passage--- something we want to do if we ever get the time and so have a very high interest in--- has told us that the theory does not hold true in reality. The current effects they encountered over the course of the run did not cancel themselves out. And that fuel burn was almost always significantly greater than they had calculated using the assumption that everything would cancel out in the end.

Their explanations were always as I stated above-- the currents did not affect their boats equally because of the routes they take through the islands. Maybe the current would cancel out if you went straight up Georgia Strait, straight up Jonnstone Strait, straight up Queen Charlotte Strait and Hakai Pass, and straight up Princess and Grenville Channels and straight across Dixon Entrance. But the folks we've talked to don't do that. They take a much more convoluted route and bypass as much of Johnstone Strait as they can, for example. They have said there have been days when all they seemed to have was contrary currents despite the fact that the tidal flow for the whole area was going the other way.

So while I certainly understand the cancel-out theory, I'm going to take the word of the people we've talked to at length about cruising the Passage who've done it, sometimes numerous times, and went over with us the records of their route and their fuel burn and their SOG.

You can take the word of whoever you like.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:52 AM   #51
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Understand one can ride the flood upriver a lot longer on the San Francisco estuary as opposed to riding the ebb downriver, leastwise when there haven't been heavy rains or dam releases.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:56 AM   #52
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Marin,
Here we are at thread creep again as I just noticed what thread we're on. From now on I'll need to check the thread before responding to your posts.

I made a post to Marin but then I saw it was way off topic so I sent it to him via PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:19 AM   #53
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Marin I'm not as interested in what your friends say as what YOU say. How bout telling us what YOU think for a change.
You never ask the easy-answer stuff, do you? If it was anyone else I'd blow you off but since it's you......

I think my friends are right because all the evidence they have presented to me has convinced me that they are. And we have experienced what they told us about currents on a much smaller and shorter scale driving a slow boat around in the San Juan and Gulf Islands and up to Desolation Sound.

If I have experienced something myself I can tell you what I think based on what I have done. And I will use that experience of doing it to defend what I have said.

IfI have not experienced something myself, wouldn't it be stupid of me to tell you what I think as if it's right, even though I don't know that it is?

So I will do the next best thing which is tell you what I have learned. And I will tell you how I learned it, which will usually be from talking to or reading material by people I judge to know what they're talking about.

It's then up to you to decide if what I have learned is valid or not.

Some people on this forum believe that if you have not experienced something yourself you have no business talking about it. I don't believe in that because that attitude negates passing on information from credible sources. Actually, it negates the whole idea behind school.

So I'm happy to pass on information I may feel is relevant to a subject even if I have not experienced it myself as long as I feel the information I'm passing on is coming from a credible source. And I'll tell you what that source is.

Whether someone else chooses to believe information I pass on is irrelevant to me.

Opinions, of course, are a whole different deal.
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:30 AM   #54
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I agree that emotion plays a big part in engine choice, like most other choices in boat gear selection. Trawlers are "working man" boats, and diesels are "working man" engines. Grunt grunt
Is either one more cost effective overall? I dunno. I doubt there is much in it worth arguing about, unless you are doing a circumnavigation or are a full time fisherman.
Of all the costs associated with running a large recreational boat, and the difference between gasoline/diesel is a miniscule percentage of the total.
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Old 12-18-2012, 05:27 AM   #55
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Tidal currents equaling out travel time...
I may not have come up with the correct explanation, but here's how I thought it worked for us not making our calculated miles at 5mph on the ICW in our sailboat.

Let's say there's a 5mph current, so I'm either going zero mph (against), or 10 mph (with). There are inlets at various places, and as I cross an inlet the current reverses.

I always spend a full 6 hrs at zero while bucking, then go 10 mph for 6 hrs, OR until I cross an inlet, at which time I'm bucking again at zero. It's possible to spend more than 1/2 the time bucking, but I can never spend more than 6 hours riding. No matter what actual speeds you use, you will ultimately spend more time bucking than riding = more fuel and more time than the numbers predict.

At least that's how I made sense of the phenomenon.
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:45 AM   #56
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To me the big problem is too many folks think "efficiency" is measured in fuel cost per mile.

Actually it should be measured in total cost per mile.

Engine replacement , oil volume and price , routine maint and PM all factor in , not just GPH.

When considering the replacement cost alone the 3x to 4x price of a simple drop in replacement diesel (never mind a better newer engine) compares well to the engine life.

2000 hours can be had from most FW cooled gassers , 6000 is about right for a seldom used , lightly loaded diesel.
Ideling for batt charging eats engines worse than operating at modest load.

Contemplate all the engine /fuel / repair costs for a perhaps different view of gas in a rec boat.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:25 AM   #57
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Seven years ago I looked at a 44 Tolly gasser at Lake Powell. The Crusader 454s had about 3000 hours on them and ran perfectly. The owner ran an auto repair shop and was pretty smart on maintenance. This immaculate fresh water boat was sold to a guy in Sidney BC who was going to install Cat 3208s he had sitting around once the gassers gave out. I lost track of how long the gassers ran once in salt water, but it was more than a fortnight and diesel desire finally took over since his 3208s were parked nearby, waiting and waiting ---------.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:16 AM   #58
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No matter what actual speeds you use, you will ultimately spend more time bucking than riding = more fuel and more time than the numbers predict.
But that also assumes you're silly enough to spend SIX HOURS making ZERO headway.

I have this scenario when transiting Deception Pass, Tacoma Narrows, Swinomish Slough... you name it. I simply time my departures and transits to make the best use of my time.

Sometimes it means leaving later... sometimes earlier... All part of the deal.

My original estimates were conservative. If I got to the point of ZERO headway.... it's time for lunch on the hook.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:23 AM   #59
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To me the big problem is too many folks think "efficiency" is measured in fuel cost per mile.

Actually it should be measured in total cost per mile.

Engine replacement , oil volume and price , routine maint and PM all factor in , not just GPH.

When considering the replacement cost alone the 3x to 4x price of a simple drop in replacement diesel (never mind a better newer engine) compares well to the engine life.

2000 hours can be had from most FW cooled gassers , 6000 is about right for a seldom used , lightly loaded diesel.
Ideling for batt charging eats engines worse than operating at modest load.

Contemplate all the engine /fuel / repair costs for a perhaps different view of gas in a rec boat.
Fred - I agree with you.

If placed on a long-term spread sheet (let’s say 30 year duration) I believe for pleasure boats (averaging 200 hrs per year engine run-time) that overall costs of diesel - vs - gas engines would show just about a push. These numbers would need to represent equal quality new engines of both types with each type engine experiencing equally correct/careful care.

Some primarily undeterminable factors (if not carefully checked into) come into play for purchasing used boats containing used engines of either type ("cost-weight" of each factor strongly determines boat owner’s overall "engine/fuel" expense):
1. Is engine on its first go-round from initial manufacturer or is it a rebuild, and, if a rebuild, who was the rebuilder... was it a qualified, reputable firm... did fluids test clean upon professional inspection?
2. Was engine properly broken in and then consistently cared for from day one of operation and how many hours are on engine as compared to that type engine’s “normal” lifespan?
3. If engine is getting “long of tooth” due to hours use what are the full costs for oncoming replacement or rebuild and how much longer is engine expected to continue operation before break down?
4. Is engine model of a type that has history of providing substantial duration of trouble free useable hours?

For experienced boat owners with decades of knowhow these four factors (and others not mentioned) for understanding the quality of used engines in used boats are pretty much a slam dunk paint-by-number exercise when purchasing any craft. However, for new boat buyers with little to no background in used-boat/used-engine purchasing or ownership these factors consist of a steep learning curve. One that if not correctly addressed might break their bank and in so doing would likely sour their desire to join and enjoy our boating community.

So... Any newbie to used-boat/used-engine purchasing needs to locate a very experienced marine mechanic who will thoroughly check-out the engines and who already well knows the background on that type of engine for clear counsel to the buyer. Otherwise the newbie could too easily, too soon be facing (for twin engine boats) $10 to $20K on new gassers or $30 to $60K for new diesels. OOOUUUCCCCHHHHH!
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:40 AM   #60
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Diesels always hold their value better. Part of it because the plants are such a huge percentage of the boat's value. Re-powering with gas over diesel takes away value in my opinion.
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