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Old 12-27-2012, 03:32 PM   #221
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I'm not convinced that any sort of "energy reclamation" scheme-- the dragging prop thing, for example--- is a viable means of reclaiming energy to use later on a boat.. Prop shafts, at least ours, don't turn all that fast when freewheeling so I don't know how much power they would be able to generate anyway.

But some schemes of this nature do work. The latest generation of GE railroad locomotives, for example, are referred to as hybrids. Prior to this, the electricity generated by the traction motors that were turned by virtue of the locomotive being pushed downhill by the train was fed into heavy metal grids to put a load on the the traction motor "generators." Like the burners on an electric stove the grids converted the electricity to heat which simply blown off into the atmosphere by fans. The load on the "generators" thus provided braking for the train (dynamic braking it's called).

On the new generation of "hybrid" locomotives, the power generated by the traction motors going downhill is used to recharge batteries instead of simply being fed to metal grids to make heat.

Then when the train is going uphill or accelerating the energy stored in the batteries is added to the power from the locomotive's diesel-powered generator thus reducing the amount of power needed from the main generator which reduces the amount of fuel burned by the diesel because it doesn't have to work so hard.

However.... the secret to the success of this scheme is that the energy required to turn the traction motors when going downhill and thus recharge the batteries comes from gravity acting on the weight of the train. And this force, unlike the energy needed to turn the dragging prop on a boat, is free.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:21 PM   #222
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I'm not convinced that any sort of "energy reclamation" scheme-- the dragging prop thing, for example--- is a viable means of reclaiming energy to use later on a boat.. Prop shafts, at least ours, don't turn all that fast when freewheeling so I don't know how much power they would be able to generate anyway.
The design of the boat in question has a single electric motor for propulsion on one side. If drug it serves as a motor generator and can then be used to replenish the batteries while underway on diesel. If there were no direct drive motor at all, that would be unnecessary.

This single drive would not have a transmission and any free-wheeling would be re-captured. You would only need to bother with this when you had depleted your battery and were running on diesel from the driect drive motor.

The ReGen Company is a pure hybrid and has dual electric propulsion. It is more advanced than the Grand Banks that was talked about earlier.

Here's a link to it again: Hybrid Boat | ReGen Hybrid Electric Marine Power
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:45 PM   #223
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The design of the boat in question has a single electric motor for propulsion on one side. If drug it serves as a motor generator and can then be used to replenish the batteries while underway on diesel.
Since the diesel is powering the boat when the propulsion batteries are discharged, I would assume the alternator(s) on the diesel would be recharging the propulsion batteries. The load on the alternator(s) has to be met by the diesel which means it has to work that much harder.

The drag of the freewheeling prop also has to be met by diesel.

So the question would seem to be, does the power being produced by the motor-generator on the freewheeling prop enhance the recharging current and reduce the recharging time of the propulsion batteries and thus reduce the alternator load on the propulsion diesel enough to cancel out the penalty of the additional fuel the diesel has to burn to meet the loads of its alternator(s) and the dragging prop?

I don't have the engineering or electrical knowledge to even hazard a guess at an answer but that would seem to be the question that determines if this type of hybrid propulsion system is economically viable.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:20 PM   #224
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I think a direct drive alternator would be more efficient than recapture from a dragging prop.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:36 PM   #225
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However.... the secret to the success of this scheme is that the energy required to turn the traction motors when going downhill and thus recharge the batteries comes from gravity acting on the weight of the train. And this force, unlike the energy needed to turn the dragging prop on a boat, is free.
The Milwaukee Road train that ran from outside Missoula to Avery Idaho did just that, when the route was electrified the power recovered by the downhill train was enough to power the uphill train with the difference made up by a hydro power station on the St. Joe River.

There is simply no comparison between terrestrial and nautical however when talking about regeneration. There is no braking energy to be recovered by a boat.

The dragging prop idea is pure vapor and fantasy. It sounds just attractive enough to attract a few dreamers. I find it amazing that the subject is still alive in this thread.

It is kind of scary that our society's collective technical knowledge is so low that ideas like that can even exist outside grade school.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:00 PM   #226
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The Milwaukee Road train that ran from outside Missoula to Avery Idaho did just that, when the route was electrified the power recovered by the downhill train was enough to power the uphill train with the difference made up by a hydro power station on the St. Joe River.
Just to clarify, as this is a railroad I happen to have studied in depth, the Milwaukee Road's two 3000 vdc electrified divisions in the Rocky and Cascade mountains sent the power from regeneration-- the generation of electricity by the traction motors going downhill-- back into the overhead wires and from there to the railroad's power substations from which it was fed into the commercial power grid.

The regenerated power itself was not used to power trains going uphill, it was simply taken off the railroad's power bill. The power from the trains operating in regeneration going downhill literally turned the commercial power grid meters in the substations backwards.

It was a very simple system designed and installed when the railroad set up its first electrified division in the Rocky Mountains in 1914 followed three years later by an identical system in the Cascades in Washington. These systems served the railroad virtually unchanged into the early 1970s.
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:58 PM   #227
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It is kind of scary that our society's collective technical knowledge is so low that ideas like that can even exist outside grade school.
And exist they do... despite the myopic view some take of technology.

Keep in mind that the Grand Banks was only partially a hybrid. Apparently it had only one of it's twin power trains removed and replaced with a 100KW genset and a permanent magnet drive motor. It was also fitted with a large lithium battery bank that would equal out the weight.

That presents you with some options. For one, you can now store energy and leave the dock under pure electric power. You can then deplete that, or augment it with the diesel drive (the untouched drive train). After you deplete the stored energy, you can switch to pure diesel. Up until this point you have been running purely on stored electrical.

Once the diesel engine is started and you start burning diesel, the other prop is doing nothing for propulsion. The generator could be running to recharge the battery pack, or the spinning prop could be used.

In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.

I suppose you'll never convince some people to think outside the box. There'll never be a free lunch, but there are other ways to propel a boat. You could build a pure electric, but you wouldn't get a full day's cruising in. A hybrid drive would allow that.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:28 PM   #228
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Prior to this, the electricity generated by the traction motors that were turned by virtue of the locomotive being pushed downhill by the train was fed into heavy metal grids to put a load on the the traction motor "generators." Like the burners on an electric stove the grids converted the electricity to heat which simply blown off into the atmosphere by fans. The load on the "generators" thus provided braking for the train (dynamic braking it's called).
Tks for the reminder Marin of being in the hole doing it all by feel changing them frig'in brushes & having my fingers snapped by the odd b-holder not sitting just right or the hours of rebuilding them series motor in the shop because of an open grid. Think I will just keep burning diesel the way it was intended i.e. twins together, hmmm ~ now there's another reminder 'twins together' howbeit a much better experience with reflecting on my first sentence.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:43 PM   #229
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??/ the talk was of producing power from the vessels movement through the water or from just the current. There was no mention of sail.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:45 PM   #230
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I take it from that post , Elwin, that you used to work for a railroad. If so I'd be interested in hearing about that. You can PM me if you like so as not to get the administrators' knickers all in a twist.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:53 PM   #231
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I take it from that post , Elwin, that you used to work for a railroad. If so I'd be interested in hearing about that. You can PM me if you like so as not to get the administrators' knickers all in a twist.
Share! There's always the off-topic section.

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Old 12-28-2012, 07:30 AM   #232
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In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.
Really? Show us the numbers.

Show us the heat balance (Sankey diagram) on that. I know that may not be far enough outside the box for you but reality lives in its own box, take a look inside once in a while.


You work for Boeing right? How about submitting your ideas to their engineers, tell them that you know for a fact that if they put a propeller on the nose or tail of the 787 they can recover some of the power that is otherwise wasted by all that air zipping past. Or even better yet, shut down one engine but let it windmill so the generator keeps making power ... think of the fuel that will save, you will be a hero.

You keep making the claims, now show us the numbers, show us the proof that your statements are true. Put up or shut up is the bottom of the box.
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Old 12-28-2012, 09:43 AM   #233
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Put up or shut up is the bottom of the box.
No... that would be the bottom of YOUR box.

Hydroelectric at my marina costs 7.2 cents per KWH
Diesel fuel is $4.11 per gallon at my marina

My boat has two 120HP motors, operating at say 75%, burning 3 GPH (lets call that 90HP)

I can make near hull speed on one motor. (just to keep it simple)

One hour of operation then costs me $12.33 per hour of operation on diesel. 90HP for one hour.

90HP equals 66.195KWH where (Power (kW) = Power (HP) x 0.7457 ) so the same electric would cost me 48 cents.

Assuming even a single hour of electric operation I would save $11.88 on every charge cycle. That savings also preserves 3 gallons of fuel. On a 10 day cruise (dockside each night) that's 30 gallons saved (or traded for $4.80 of electric)

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Show us the heat balance (Sankey diagram) on that. I know that may not be far enough outside the box for you but reality lives in its own box, take a look inside once in a while.
OK. I'll give it a shot for ya. If I've missed efficiency losses of an electric motor let me know what they are and I'll update it for you. In either case electric motors are hugely more efficient. I also left off transmissions (you wouldn't need them in an electric drive).

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Old 12-28-2012, 10:35 AM   #234
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OK. I'll give it a shot for ya.

Once the diesel engine is started and you start burning diesel, the other prop is doing nothing for propulsion. The generator could be running to recharge the battery pack, or the spinning prop could be used.

In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.
That shot went really wild ... and the spark ignition diagram has less to do with what you propose than the vaporware aircraft you posted last time you got wedged into a corner.

No one argued against the idea that charging batteries from shore or solar or wind or waste heat may be less costly than running an engine driven generator. You seem to be trying your damndest to weedle around and make that seem like it is the point of disagreement. Give that up.

Your statement quoted above is the basis of the reason I say you are as duped as the other dreamers and the trailing/cruise prop crowd, you simply cannnot comprehend or will not accept the fact that energy is lost at each conversion and burning diesel fuel to make electricity to produce a reversible chemical process to drive a boat is never going to be as efficient as using that fuel to power the prop without all the intermediate conversions.

Unless you can show how the fantasy quoted above results in burning less fuel for the same result you really ought to just give up. This is high school physics, man, it isn't rocket science or advanced thermodynamics.

Debating with you really is a waste of time and bandwidth, it truly is like wrestling with pigs that demand attention like a 2-year old.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:05 AM   #235
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I didn't figure you bother. I provided your diagram thinking pictures might make things simpler for ya.

I have been talking about hybrid diesel-electrics this entire time. In your snarky comments you refuse to address anything intelligently so I guess we've run our course yet again.

I tried to show you how having a hybrid diesel-electric could indeed be more efficient and feasible, but your childish attitude and odd tendency to rebut everything with name calling and insult is telling. The NRE of installing such a system would never work in today's world, but the numbers do show a positive return.

I'll let you get back to your pig wrestling...
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:14 AM   #236
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Looks like Marin we are going to have to send another loaded train downhill to help Rick's train up this one, Sailor just placed a big load of something on it..
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:21 AM   #237
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So the question would seem to be, does the power being produced by the motor-generator on the freewheeling prop enhance the recharging current and reduce the recharging time of the propulsion batteries and thus reduce the alternator load on the propulsion diesel enough to cancel out the penalty of the additional fuel the diesel has to burn to meet the loads of its alternator(s) and the dragging prop?
I guess our resident alternative propulsion evangelist isn't going to ask, and since I believe you have more access to Boeing's engineering staff than he, perhaps you can ask them if trailing a wind turbine behind the 787 or windmilling an engine to turn the generator will contribute to increased efficiency and reduced fuel burn.

It might be amusing if you film that interview.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:25 AM   #238
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Looks like Marin we are going to have to send another loaded train downhill to help Rick's train up this one,
Nah, all you have to do is drag another prop and keep going. Drag enough of them and you can shut down the diesel.
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:00 PM   #239
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And exist they do... despite the myopic view some take of technology.

Keep in mind that the Grand Banks was only partially a hybrid. Apparently it had only one of it's twin power trains removed and replaced with a 100KW genset and a permanent magnet drive motor. It was also fitted with a large lithium battery bank that would equal out the weight.

That presents you with some options. For one, you can now store energy and leave the dock under pure electric power. You can then deplete that, or augment it with the diesel drive (the untouched drive train). After you deplete the stored energy, you can switch to pure diesel. Up until this point you have been running purely on stored electrical.

Once the diesel engine is started and you start burning diesel, the other prop is doing nothing for propulsion. The generator could be running to recharge the battery pack, or the spinning prop could be used.

In any case, you're not getting anything for free, just less expensive hydro fuel.

I suppose you'll never convince some people to think outside the box. There'll never be a free lunch, but there are other ways to propel a boat. You could build a pure electric, but you wouldn't get a full day's cruising in. A hybrid drive would allow that.
great idea but i would think you won't be getting the efficiency of a single engine because you will have the equivalent weight of dual engines and the remaining engine is not in line with the keel. Now the question is: Would the use of the stored electrical energy to power the vessel be enough to offset the losses from the additional weight etc. over a single engine trawler? What if you went one step further and used a single engine vessel with the electric drive system in series with the main diesel engine then both would operate more efficiently. Right?
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Old 12-28-2012, 03:15 PM   #240
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Looks like Marin we are going to have to send another loaded train downhill to help Rick's train up this one, Sailor just placed a big load of something on it..
If I were to engage in the technical aspects of this discussion on either side it would be equivelent of Goofy sitting in on a strategy meeting of Amazon.com's board of directors. I would contribute nothing of value and be perceived as an even bigger goof than I already am.
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