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Old 12-26-2012, 08:27 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
not a fantasy that has been done. I believe there are on the market devices that do just what you describe. here is a link to one such device Cruising hydro generator
This hydro-generator would make sense if one was anchored in a 3+ knot current or one was sailing (with sails) without an engine working, but not if one was using fuel to move one's boat through the water. The device would create drag, increasing fuel consumption if moving under power.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:57 PM   #202
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"Energy-Loss-Transfer" must occur, simple as that! If energy is created by petrol engine and transferred by any means directly to electric engine, or for even more energy loss factors stored in battery first and then transferred to electric engine, the overall efficiency values as compared to energy directly from petrol engine to prop-shaft must be diminished. The only way I can see there being increased overall efficiency via marine electric motor propulsion would be if "free" solar energy could be captured in enough quanity to upset/sufficiently-supplement the general physics property of "energy-loss-transfer".

It seems clear to me: If it can be figured out how to get increased energy (as compared to power produced via fuel burning engine) from the electric motor to the prop shaft without including solar energy as an offset to overcome "energy-loss-transfer" then the basics of perpetual motion has been established... wherein all "extra energy" needs should be able to be accomplished in utility scale.

Soon, Happy New Year!
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:59 PM   #203
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Marin, I'm sure that using untreated fuel (gas or diesel or kerosene) within a year’s time span is in general advisable.
Art--- The advice we have been given by both the aforementioned Honda repair shop and the Yamaha dealer we use in Seattle is that non-ethonol fuel, treated with some sort of stabilizer, is good for sure for a year. After that it's anybody's guess.

However, they say that ethanol-mixed gasoline on its own is good only for a month or so before it can start to cause problems in outboards and small equipment engines like lawn mowers and generators. They said that four-stroke engines suffer more than two-stroke engines because the jet orifices in a four-stroke are smaller. (It's conceivable I have that backwards as it was some months ago that we were given the information.)

The Yamaha dealer says they have observed ethanol-mixed fuel "breakdown," gumming, etc. after a month in tests they have run in their shop to satisfy their own curiosity. Adding a stabilizer, they say, will extend that time to a degree. But if the stabilizer contains alcohol this creates the water problem I described earlier. And they both said ethanol-mixed fuel will not last a year, even with a stabilizer in it.

Anyway, FWIW that's what we've learned this past year after dealing with some fuel issues in some of our equipment, including a 90hp 2-stroke outboard and a 3500 watt 4-stroke generator.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:20 PM   #204
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Anyway, FWIW that's what we've learned this past year after dealing with some fuel issues in some of our equipment, including a 90hp 2-stroke outboard and a 3500 watt 4-stroke generator.
From my experience Soltron and SeaFoam work well in maintaining and/or salvaging both ethanol and straight gasoline; as well as for keeping internal fuel containers and fuel lines and carbs/injectors clean.

Best luck with all your fuel-use endeavors!
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:32 PM   #205
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From my experience Soltron and SeaFoam work well in maintaining and/or salvaging both ethanol and straight gasoline; as well as for keeping internal fuel containers and fuel lines and carbs/injectors clean.
We've used Stabil for years but as it's one of the stabilizers we were told have alcohol as a component I'm happy to try the Soltron or Seafoam product.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:36 PM   #206
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Why are you even in this discussion? You obviously have no experience or knowledge about the subject but seem intent on making a fight of it ...
That's the beauty of this world. We're all welcome to participate in it.

I have no intent of making a fight. We started talking about diesel-electrics, and you summarily dismissed it.

You fail to address what I was describing. Someone else mentioned a hybrid and posted a link. I'm not so hard-headed I couldn't be curious.

They had one at the Miami Boat Show, and it used a series-hybrid just as I was trying to describe to you. You seem to like to be king-of-the-heap here more than discuss anything I suppose.

While I don't think series-hybrid boats will have any real market until the price of crude gets ridiculous and the infrastructure gets in place, it's pretty cool stuff.

I drove to Seattle and back the other day in a Chevy Volt. A couple of years ago, folks swore that would never happen, and I would have agreed with them. We traveled some 75 miles or so round trip, and while it's not technically a series hybrid, it's the closest I've been around in a car.

Anyhow... sorry you have all the bitterness in your life. That must really eat at ya over time. Not sure how old you are Rick, but it'll take it's toll on ya eventually.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:44 PM   #207
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"Energy-Loss-Transfer" must occur, simple as that! If energy is created by petrol engine and transferred by any means directly to electric engine, or for even more energy loss factors stored in battery first and then transferred to electric engine, the overall efficiency values as compared to energy directly from petrol engine to prop-shaft must be diminished.


No one is saying free. What you're missing is you leave the dock with XXX KW of stored energy. You spend that along the way and eventually need to switch to diesel. The efficiency is in the fact that you can recharge either at the dock or on the hook, or both.

It's the basic theory behind a series hybrid (think Chevy Volt). The Prius is a Parallel Hybrid, and the Volt is a Series Hybrid (sort of). A boat would likely need to be a series hybrid to get any range and could take advantage of dockside recharges.





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Old 12-27-2012, 12:19 AM   #208
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For a nice Christmas present bflloyd, check this out.
Greenline Hybrid
The 33 was at the Sydney 2012 BoatShow.
There is a popular annual race from Darwin to Alice Springs for solar powered cars. They are usually built by Universities or Tertiary Colleges, look abominably cramped and hot, have an entire roof of panels, but built light go like the clappers, especially if the sun holds, as it usually does there, on very straight roads which until recently had absolutely no speed limit. Entries come from overseas as well as local. The racing is intended to promote solar powering research.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:57 AM   #209
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No one is saying free. What you're missing is you leave the dock with XXX KW of stored energy. You spend that along the way and eventually need to switch to diesel. The efficiency is in the fact that you can recharge either at the dock or on the hook, or both.

It's the basic theory behind a series hybrid (think Chevy Volt). The Prius is a Parallel Hybrid, and the Volt is a Series Hybrid (sort of). A boat would likely need to be a series hybrid to get any range and could take advantage of dockside recharges.



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You are speaking of recharging an expensive, big, and very heavy weight battery bank at dock, “... or on the hook” (BTW: By what fast or slow energy producing system’s means on the hook do you refer... hydrocarbon powered gen set, alternator on hydrocarbon fueled main engine, small arrangement of expensive low kWh producing PV solar panels, small kWh producing wind prop generator, or minor kWh tidal-current-capturing prop in water?). What you are missing in the broad (i.e. global) scope of things is that “... [for] you [to] leave the dock with XXX KW of stored energy” you have sapped that energy from the regional electric power grid, whose power is derived primarily from hydrocarbon (coal or nat-gas) fired and/or nuclear powered electric plants. Additionally, the “Energy-Loss-Transfer” factor from said power plants’ utility scale electricity manufacturing facilities to your boat, or car, or home is substantial. Therefore... when the majority of cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles and other vehicle types begin relying on the regional, national, and even international power grids for an enormous new load of charging their huge battery banks the overall pollution created by the electric power grid’s hydrocarbon fired and nuclear powerd plants will go right off the charts. To combat that occurrence the cost per kWh will experience dramatic increases for all customers’, i.e. consumers’ residential, boating, or commercial accounts. Again, there is no free-trade-off coming in forseable future for any type of power that has enough clout to motivate the over 1.5 billion existing vehicles (of all types) currently on this planet. Hydrocarbon-fuel and nuclear-reaction powered electric plants are the most efficient electric energy producers now in existence. Solar plants (of any type), wind powered plants, wave powered plants, geothermal plants, damed-water generators and other “non-polluting” sources of utility scale GW electricity production are minimal in scope to the “main-scope” of electric power manufacturing plants comprised of hydrocarbon and nuclear sources.

Additionally: The pollution content of the types of battery banks that could currently be produced to power hundreds of millions of vehicles would not only tax the resources needed for such an undertaking but upon each banks’ demise (which they will do) the efforts needed to stop pollution therein created would be nearly insurmountable to handle. So... better battery bank types need to be devised if we are to globally follow this power storage/usage path.

What this world needs is an atmospherically recyclable hydrocarbon feedstock source of fuels that is globally available and can be refined into the three main hydrocarbon fuel types, i.e. diesel, gasoline and jet fuel that are drop-in fungible with refined crude oil fuels. This technique is now being thoroughly worked toward via atmospheric separation of Carbon Dioxide that can be developed into Syngas and then refined into the three main fuel types. All portions of the complex CO2 atmospheric separation apparatus I’m engaged in developing are solar powered. Its technical function is known as Direct Air Capture (DAC). My Corporation along with many other corps as well a Sandia National Labs and several universities have been cooperatively heading toward this objective for some time. The complete recycling object is that CO2 feedstock separated from atmosphere and then turned into liquid hydrocarbon fuels go right back into atmosphere upon combustion engine use for ongoing recycling purposes. It can be done, we have working models. In global scales it can be made considerably affordable, we have proof-in-principal calculations. Detramental headwinds we are encountering are ample funding to push our system into utility scale development and national/international push back from Big Oil companies.
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:36 AM   #210
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Very good. Lets find a miracle )
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Old 12-27-2012, 05:59 AM   #211
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Very good. Lets find a miracle )
Thank you, Alemao. I appreciate that statement and agree with you about finding some sort of “energy creation miracle". That said: Our DAC for Atmospheric CO2 and using the CO2 as a hydrocarbon fuel feedstock is not actually a miracle - Just a LOT of Hard Inventive Work! LOL
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:58 AM   #212
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The way to "don't burn fuel": TURBOSAIL, A fixed cylinder that looked like a smokestack and functioned like an airplane wing. A movable shutter and system of fan-drawn aspiration improved the efficiency of this new sail. Small-scale models tested in a wind tunnel functioned perfectly
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:13 AM   #213
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While I don't think series-hybrid boats will have any real market until the price of crude gets ridiculous and the infrastructure gets in place, it's pretty cool stuff.
It doesn't matter if crude oil is free or unobtainable, each energy conversion imposes a loss and only the ignorant dreamers believe there are efficiency gains by compounding them in any fashion.

As Art made so very clear to those who will see, you aren't improving efficiency, you aren't getting a free lunch, you are simply making smaller payments to more suppliers and conveniently ignoring the total.

The dragging prop crowd just ignore that bill altogether.

You may be able to save money on fuel purchases, you'll buy less liquid hydrocarbon but you will pay as much or more for the energy sourced elsewhere, either upfront for expensive storage devices, or over the life cycle of alternate sources or means of conversion. There is no free lunch.

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I drove to Seattle and back the other day in a Chevy Volt. A couple of years ago, folks swore that would never happen, and I would have agreed with them. We traveled some 75 miles or so round trip, and while it's not technically a series hybrid, it's the closest I've been around in a car.
That's nice. What has that got to do with powering a boat? Park the Volt with the lights on in a Belltown parking lot for a couple of days then drive it to Snoqualmie and let us know how it works out. That is more like the operating conditions of a recreational boat.

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Anyhow... sorry you have all the bitterness in your life. That must really eat at ya over time. Not sure how old you are Rick, but it'll take it's toll on ya eventually.
Silly man, why do you think that my illuminating your ignorance of the topic means I am "bitter"? You know less about my life than you know about marine propulsion. If that is an attempt to discredit my input to this thread then it says more about your life than mine.

Just because I ridicule the ridiculous and laugh at the never ending stream of fools who think they have discovered how to turn entropy into fuel doesn't mean I have to coddle them.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:54 AM   #214
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It was asked why diesel electric would not work and Rick has dismissed all hybrids as a fool's errand. I believe it is one option. Someday you'll see hybrid trawlers out there just like you commonly see hybrid vehicles on the road now.

We're seeing the evolution of hybrids beginning. From parallel to serial hybrids, they are being adapted to their best suited roles.

No one is saying "free energy" but more about being able to extend range and take advantage of less expensive hydro, nuclear and solar solar available at the dock.

Currently, trawlers do not have the ability to store or make use that power. As the technology evolves in cars, maybe you'll eventually see someone who's hacked a Prius motor into other vehicles. Maybe it'll be a trawler?
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #215
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We seem to have two subjects going here - I' d like to comment on ethanol problems...I don't have any.

I guess solvent/tank issues and hoses and gaskets that can't tolerate ethanol are real, but I've not had any problems with that. Nor have I had any problems with phase separation or old fuel. My experience otherwise has been that storage is not a problem if gas that evaporates from a float bowl is not allowed to be replaced. Turn off the gas valve so the float bowl is not an evaporation chamber for the entire tank. Once 'gunk' forms in the carb, no amount of additives will help, it must be disassembled and cleaned, although draining the bowl and refilling it with carb cleaner via the drain port will help a marginal problem if allowed to saok long enough.

As for Honda generators - at least the "i" series...the storage recommendations are to completely dry the fuel system, but if the on/off switch is off and the vent on the tank is closed I don't have a problem because once the float bowl is dry, it stays that way. In working with three models of the "i" series, I have found that if the generator doesn't start on the first or second pull, no matter how long it's been inactive, a shot of fuel in the sparkplug hole will get it going.

So while the ethanol problems are real for some folks, it hasn't been the case with me. And as far as old fuel goes, I'd rather run it thru the Quadrajet on my 350 Chevy/Volvo than put it in my modern fuel injected vehicles.

Additives? I have a bottle of Pri-G which I seldom remember to use.
PRI Advanced Fuel Treatments

Oh, and pure gas is available around here at about every 10th station, but I can see no reason to pay a premium for it for use in either my (trailer) boat or cars.
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:42 PM   #216
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We seem to have two subjects going here - I' d like to comment on ethanol problems...I don't have any.

I guess solvent/tank issues and hoses and gaskets that can't tolerate ethanol are real, but I've not had any problems with that. Nor have I had any problems with phase separation or old fuel. My experience otherwise has been that storage is not a problem if gas that evaporates from a float bowl is not allowed to be replaced. Turn off the gas valve so the float bowl is not an evaporation chamber for the entire tank. Once 'gunk' forms in the carb, no amount of additives will help, it must be disassembled and cleaned, although draining the bowl and refilling it with carb cleaner via the drain port will help a marginal problem if allowed to saok long enough.

As for Honda generators - at least the "i" series...the storage recommendations are to completely dry the fuel system, but if the on/off switch is off and the vent on the tank is closed I don't have a problem because once the float bowl is dry, it stays that way. In working with three models of the "i" series, I have found that if the generator doesn't start on the first or second pull, no matter how long it's been inactive, a shot of fuel in the sparkplug hole will get it going.

So while the ethanol problems are real for some folks, it hasn't been the case with me. And as far as old fuel goes, I'd rather run it thru the Quadrajet on my 350 Chevy/Volvo than put it in my modern fuel injected vehicles.

Additives? I have a bottle of Pri-G which I seldom remember to use.
PRI Advanced Fuel Treatments

Oh, and pure gas is available around here at about every 10th station, but I can see no reason to pay a premium for it for use in either my (trailer) boat or cars.
I pretty much agree with what you say. However, I don't fully agree with what I placed in bold on your quote. In that: I have found that a very "gunked-up" carburetor with all ports left open and made sure to be filled with the following mixture will become un-gunked/un-varnished without disassembling the carb - - > i.e. 5 gallon bucket 3/4 filled with 95% gasoline (pure or ethanol included) and 5% Toluene. Let set for 24 hrs mininum. Pick up carb and turn in mixture many times as well as holding above and letting fluids flow out then again refill by turning over and over inside mixture.

Mixture turns tan/brown color with dissolved gunk and varnish. Place carb back on motor and pour colored mixture into a car or truck tank that already has bout ˝ or more fill. Disolved gunk/varnish have no effect when diluted and toluene will simply help keep fuel system clean. Drive, errrr boat on! Use good quality rubber gloves while working in the gas/toluene mixture.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:33 PM   #217
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It was asked why diesel electric would not work and Rick has dismissed all hybrids as a fool's errand. I believe it is one option. Someday you'll see hybrid trawlers out there just like you commonly see hybrid vehicles on the road now.
One of the interesting hybrid designs I have seen, is a twin engine configuration. Each engine is equiped with a motor that can also be used as a generator. When running at or below displacement speed, only one engine is running - turning both the directly connected shaft and the generator. Power from the generator is then directed to other shaft driven by the electric motor. This allows using a single engine to power both shafts. Also allows easy switching between engines, and also allows the generator to be used as a thrid power source.

I have also seen designs similar to this using hydraulics for similar functionality. The only benefit of using electric, is the ability of using stored energy from a battery.

I could see generating power from a dragging propeller on a sailboat, where one might have a variable pitch prop that can be feathered. This propeller could then be set to an efficient angle for power generating. I can't see a standard propeller designed for thrust, being anywhere close to effecient when dragged through the water for power generation.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:44 PM   #218
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We seem to have two subjects going here -
As quick as the mods are to separate threads I wonder why they have left this one so badly merged?
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:49 PM   #219
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It was asked why diesel electric would not work and Rick has dismissed all hybrids as a fool's errand.


I was actually working on hybrid vessels long before you probably even knew such a concept existed.

I did not dismiss the errand, I dismissed the fools.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:51 PM   #220
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As quick as the mods are to separate threads I wonder why they have left this one so badly merged?
shushhhhh - it's working well...
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