Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-26-2012, 01:22 PM   #181
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Thank's SomeSailor. You didn't need to say that but you did.
Rick misses the fact that these boats have electric motors dragging screws. They function as generators in that configuration.

Do they add drag? Sure. But no more than running on one engine and dragging a screw on our current boats. The difference is the turning screw is feeding power back to a battery. In some cases the motor that has been replaced by a generator is charging as well.

You can travel by pure electric, diesel electric, or pure diesel. In any case you get to make use use energy taken on at the dock and from solar panels.

The diesel-electric series-hybrid drives are already available, just not cost effective for an old boat. The neat thing is you could have completely variable / near instant power. No more Velvet drives.
__________________
Advertisement

SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 01:27 PM   #182
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
Rick misses the fact that these boats have electric motors dragging screws. They function as generators in that configuration.
That's funny.

Why not make that dragging screw big enough to power another motor and drive another propeller so you can go even faster and get even more power from the dragging screw?

Make sure you carry a sea anchor though so the boat doesn't speed up so much so quickly that you can't control it.
__________________

RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 01:42 PM   #183
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
What you're also missing is you're trading this drag for a recharge on a battery.

If I run on ONE engine... I save fuel because the idling motor is turned off.

If I propel myself on ONE engine... and the other is a generator... I save fuel because I'm accumulating energy in the battery... which will save me fuel later.

If I have the battery to begin with, I'm saving energy because I can store electrical energy which is cheaper than diesel. I refuel at the dock, or soak up solar while on the hook.

A generator connected to any motor uses less energy than a heavy transmission. (changing rotational direction mechanically is hugely inefficient)

Anyhow... you'll argue with anything I say, so I'll not bother with you Rick. Series-Hybrid drives exist today. They are hugely efficient and have benefit of being able to make exactly the amount of torque needed at the very moment you need it. They have been doing this on locomotives for years and cars now as well.

They are even using this technology on airplanes:

Check out the Volta Volare GT4

SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 02:07 PM   #184
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
What you're also missing is you're trading this drag for a recharge on a battery.
You are adding drag because you are extracting more energy from the water flow than if the prop just windmilled.


Quote:
If I run on ONE engine... I save fuel because the idling motor is turned off.
That is the only part you got right but it begs the question, why buy two engines if you only want to use one?


Quote:
If I propel myself on ONE engine... and the other is a generator... I save fuel because I'm accumulating energy in the battery... which will save me fuel later.
No, you put less energy in the batteries than you consume to produce it. You lose even more when you extract it to drive an electric motor to turn the shaft. Lose lose lose at every conversion.

As much as you desperately want to believe there is some magic way to get more energy out of the fuel in your boat's tanks, converting it to electricity and storing it through some reversible chemical process throws it away at each step.

If you seriously believe you can extract more energy from a trailing prop than the energy required to create the water flow that turns it you are simply delusional.

You aren't talking about a free lunch, you are rambling on about perpetual motion.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 02:38 PM   #185
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Thanks, Art, for your posting on your experience with old gas.

There is a grange store not too far from us that sells non-ethanol gasoline. On the advice of our local Honda repair shop we have filled a couple of five-gallon containers with this fuel to use in our generator at home. And we will start using it in our trailer fishing boat with 90 hp 2-stoke and 6 hp 4-stroke outboards.

The Honda fellow told us that a lot of fuel stabilizers have alcohol as an ingredient. When used in ethanol-treated fuel, this in effect doubles the amount of alcohol in the fuel and this in turn, he said, leads to water problems. By using non-ethanol fuel, fuel stabilizers like Stabil, etc. will then work as advertised.

However he still advocated running a motor out of fuel and draining the carburetor after any use where the motor was likely to sit for some time without being used. He also said that any unused fuel should be put into a vehicle after a year and the containers refilled with fresh non-ethanol fuel and treated.

Does that sound like good advice?
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 03:08 PM   #186
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,724
Sure does Marin.

I'm surprised to hear about the alcohol in the stabilizers. I've noticed that the gas stations that have no alcohol gas are all Union 76. Expensive too.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 03:50 PM   #187
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Some Arco stations around here also have non-ethanol fuel, too.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 04:27 PM   #188
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
You are talking about using an engine to charge batteries. I was talking about the fantasy that taking power from a trailing screw contitutes a means to recover power.

Not even in the same conversation.
not a fantasy that has been done. I believe there are on the market devices that do just what you describe. here is a link to one such device Cruising hydro generator
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 04:32 PM   #189
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
Rick misses the fact that these boats have electric motors dragging screws. They function as generators in that configuration.

Perpetual motion boat
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 04:38 PM   #190
Guru
 
City: coos bay
Country: usa
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Thanks, Art, for your posting on your experience with old gas.

There is a grange store not too far from us that sells non-ethanol gasoline. On the advice of our local Honda repair shop we have filled a couple of five-gallon containers with this fuel to use in our generator at home. And we will start using it in our trailer fishing boat with 90 hp 2-stoke and 6 hp 4-stroke outboards.

The Honda fellow told us that a lot of fuel stabilizers have alcohol as an ingredient. When used in ethanol-treated fuel, this in effect doubles the amount of alcohol in the fuel and this in turn, he said, leads to water problems. By using non-ethanol fuel, fuel stabilizers like Stabil, etc. will then work as advertised.

However he still advocated running a motor out of fuel and draining the carburetor after any use where the motor was likely to sit for some time without being used. He also said that any unused fuel should be put into a vehicle after a year and the containers refilled with fresh non-ethanol fuel and treated.

Does that sound like good advice?
I stopped doing that two years ago when i started useing non ethanol gas in all my small gas engines. Now in the spring they all start. I still add a fuel stabilizer, amsoil, all the time to keep the carbon gone. Marin, just cause the label says it is a fuel stabilizer dosent mean it really is. u gotta read the label and sometimes call the company and talk to one of their engineers. AMSOIL Gasoline Fuel Additives i am not a dealer i am just useing amsoil as an example
bfloyd4445 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 04:38 PM   #191
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
not a fantasy that has been done. I believe there are on the market devices that do just what you describe. here is a link to one such device Cruising hydro generator
What part of sailboat don't you understand?

Since it is the holiday season I will be kind a let you in on something ...

A sailboat moves because the sails create lift and move the boat through the water. The sails extract a certain amount of energy from the wind to do so. If you stick one of those "hydro generator" things in the water it will convert some of the energy extracted from the wind to electricity.

It will also create drag that will slow the boat's passage through the water because not as much energy is being converted to propulsion. If you put an ammeter on the output of that thing you would see that it produced a certain amount of current when it was initially placed in the water but as the boat slowed from the drag it created, the current would drop off until equilibrium was reached. The sails still extract the same amount of power but now part of that power is diverted from propulsion to generation.

Stick one of those on your powerboat and you are in the same perpetual motion wannabe barge as that poor benighted soul from Albany.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 04:53 PM   #192
Guru
 
LaBomba's Avatar
 
City: Beaverton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Airswift
Vessel Model: Ontario Yachts Great Lakes 33
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 819
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfloyd4445 View Post
I stopped doing that two years ago when i started useing non ethanol gas in all my small gas engines. Now in the spring they all start. I still add a fuel stabilizer, amsoil, all the time to keep the carbon gone. Marin, just cause the label says it is a fuel stabilizer dosent mean it really is. u gotta read the label and sometimes call the company and talk to one of their engineers. AMSOIL Gasoline Fuel Additives i am not a dealer i am just useing amsoil as an example
I started using Star Tron Enzyme Fuel treatment on the recommendation of the Yamaha dealer who told me it was the best at converting the water produced by ethanol fuel into a burnable solution. Have had no issues and use it at every fill up and my boat sits for at least 4 to 5 months during winter and my generator even longer depending on power outages. Have a look at the following link it's interesting what they have to say.

Star Tron Enzyme Fuel Treatment - Ethanol/E10
LaBomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 04:54 PM   #193
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Thanks, Art, for your posting on your experience with old gas.

There is a grange store not too far from us that sells non-ethanol gasoline. On the advice of our local Honda repair shop we have filled a couple of five-gallon containers with this fuel to use in our generator at home. And we will start using it in our trailer fishing boat with 90 hp 2-stoke and 6 hp 4-stroke outboards.

The Honda fellow told us that a lot of fuel stabilizers have alcohol as an ingredient. When used in ethanol-treated fuel, this in effect doubles the amount of alcohol in the fuel and this in turn, he said, leads to water problems. By using non-ethanol fuel, fuel stabilizers like Stabil, etc. will then work as advertised.

However he still advocated running a motor out of fuel and draining the carburetor after any use where the motor was likely to sit for some time without being used. He also said that any unused fuel should be put into a vehicle after a year and the containers refilled with fresh non-ethanol fuel and treated.

Does that sound like good advice?
Marin, I'm sure that using untreated fuel (gas or diesel or kerosene) within a year’s time span is in general advisable. Although, if the correct stabilizers/organic-growth-removers and varnish liquefiers are added to the fuel it seems to me that fuels can last much longer in good condition than otherwise... also older fuel can be returned to OK condition. I never have deemed the complete draining of carbs as good idea... reason is the coating of gasoline remaining on the walls, needle valves, floats etc turns to varnish even more quickly. I believe putting a good carb cleaner into the fuel before long term shut down is what really keeps the "filled" gas lines (carb included) clean from varnish. I reemphasis Soltron and SeaFoam as my choice for fuel stabilizer and varnish liquefier... used on regular basis they both do me well. If I get a real "varnish" problem inside a carburetor (I've successfully done this twice - once with the Rochester 4bbl on my 1967 Buick Wildcat) I take a bucket and fill it with 95% fresh gasoline and 5% toluene. Submerge carb in the mix and with rubber gloves I turn the carb over and over till all air bubbles stop. Let it set for 24 hrs, remove and reinstall... works great! And, the gas/toluene mix can be poured into a vehicle's somewhat filled gas tank and used correctly.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 06:32 PM   #194
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
So Rick;

We'll keep the idea basic.

1. Have you heard of a "series hybrid"?
2. Have you heard of a "diesel electric series hybrid"?

The technology exists, but it's not economical in my opinion yet, but that does not make it fantasy. On the advice of someone else on here I'm trying to discuss this like couple of adults. If you could share your thoughts on the two questions above, that might be a good start. A 50A shore power connection could bring aboard and store 48KW hours of power in an 8 hour overnight at a dock. The Regen system has a 100KW genset that could do that in two hours on the hook.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.
SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 06:38 PM   #195
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,937
I know what Rick is getting at...many are missing his point...

Sure there are recoup systems...but if active while powering...it's a push.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 06:40 PM   #196
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Re. #1 and #2: having spent a few years on D/E submarines, as well as battery electric only submarines, yes. Having spent a few more on D/E and turbo-electric surface ships, yes, I can say I have more than "heard of" them.

Now, back to the point and the subject you are carefully evading - the "argument" is concerning your (and other's) statements about recovering power from trailing props and the fantasies that surround the supposed economies of small scale D/E marine propulsion systems.

Backpedaling and trying to redirect the discussion to some other topic is pure evasion. Your last last posts reiterated your bizarre belief about dragging screws and efficiency gains through multiple energy conversions ... now you come back with silly questions about real life installations you have only read about.

Why are you even in this discussion? You obviously have no experience or knowledge about the subject but seem intent on making a fight of it ...
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 06:57 PM   #197
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I know what Rick is getting at...many are missing his point...

Sure there are recoup systems...but if active while powering...it's a push.

Far worse than a "push" ... they are a loss, it is entropy ... losses at every turn and conversion. There is no such thing as regeneration on a powerboat. You can't recover from the water any power that has been used to move the hull through the water any more than you can pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You can pretend to make energy by ignoring where it came from in the first place but that is only the delusion of a dreamer or the barking of a scammer hiding behind his smoke and mirrors.

Why on Earth would someone post a drawing of a pie-in-the-sky aircraft to rebut an argument against the idea of getting free energy from a trailing prop?

This is so typical of these whackjob promoters and dreamers ... they can't answer the most basic question so they inject someone else's fantasy project as proof of their own imagined insight. They avoid the subject when they are shown to be dupes or duped. This exact subject comes up every couple of years and each time it ends up the same, the dupes get pissed off because their dreams have been exposed to daylight.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 06:58 PM   #198
Guru
 
Anode's Avatar


 
City: Missourah
Country: USA
Vessel Name: M/V Scout
Vessel Model: Sundowner Tug 30'
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 645
__________________
Chip

Deliveries & Yacht Services
www.captainchip.com
Anode is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 07:16 PM   #199
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Hey, now you just might be on to something!

I bet if the lead magnet was on a fixed beam it would eliminate the losses from swinging around on the string and the boat would go faster!
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 07:17 PM   #200
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,157
Simply stated, even though the prop is already spinning, adding a generator of any sort to it will add more drag to it, thus making it harder to turn and therefore making the other engine have to work just a little harder to make up for it. What Rick is saying is that you can't make back the loss.

In a hybrid car, the situation is different. LOST energy is only collected under braking when the resistance (read: drag) can be used to your advantage to both generate and slow the vehicle down.
__________________

__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diesel electric, hybrid, perpetual motion, solar, wind power

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012