Fuel valving schematic or picture.

[Fighterpilot]

twin engines, two tanks, does anyone have a picture of their fuel valving set up or a schematic? Thanks

 

[Tom.B]

I just redid my entire fuel rig last winter (search the forums... it's all there), and I have to say that if you are planning on an overhaul, half the fun is coming up with the system that works for you on your own. A system with the same config as you may need a different plumbing setup than you.

 

[Marin]

Fighterpilot wrote:
twin engines, two tanks, does anyone have a picture of their fuel valving set up or a schematic? Thanks

*Twin engines, two tanks no.* Twin engines (plus generator), five tanks, yes.

 

[bobofthenorth]

Mine is poorly laid out and I can't find a picture of it anyway but what you want in effect is a withdrawal manifold that can select either or both tanks as its source and then direct the flow to either or both engines (and the gennie if applicable). On the return side you want exactly the same manifold so that you can return to either or both tanks from any source. Some systems are more intuitively laid out than others - its hard to imagine a less intuitive layout than what we bought but it has all the features so it works and it will likely be exactly the same whenever we sell the boat. If you want to add a polishing system then it just crosses between the two manifolds.

 

[markpierce]

I've got one engine and four fuel tanks, but this might help.* In the schematic, just*substite the "engine" circuit for the genset (which I don't have) to get you two engines.* The schematic also includes a fuel polisher.* The schematic just shows two fuel tanks.* Excuse the duplicate photo.


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 18th of October 2011 12:36:34 AM

 

[Tom.B]

Holy freakin' Toledo!!!! Nice install, but WOW!!!

 

[RickB]

Jenny wrote:
Any combination can be used for feeding fuel to the engines or for polishing.* Or both at the same time.

*How do you feed the port engine from the port tank and stbd from stbd tank while feeding the generators from another tank?

 

[RickB]

The short version: All the engines are supplied from a single source and if that source becomes contaminated all engines quit at the same time.

 

[sunchaser]

Dick - Questions
<ul>[*]Did the vessel have dirty fuel problems before you undertook the makeover[*]How many years to build up 1" of gunk[*]Do your tanks have drain valves on the bottom[*]How old are*the tanks and how many more years in them[*]To my eye they look very good on the inside, based upon what you found would you use steel or ?? on a new build[/list]
Thanks for sharing

*

*

 

[RickB]

Jenny wrote:
Being that my tankage allows me to*only operate with*100% garanteed polished fuel,

There are many single engine boats that have crossed oceans with less redundancy in the fuel system.

Fuel contamination can be more than just water or solids that can be filtered.

People have rowed across the ocean, what has that got to do with fuel systems?

Your fuel system has reduncancy in superflous pumps and filters but has a glaring single point failure mode that will take out all four engines at once. It is a bad design.

 

[RickB]

Well actually, I achieved that goal a long time ago. That is why it only took about 5 seconds to spot the design flaw in that system. It looks to me like it was designed by a plumbing parts salesman.

Is it painted black to hide the solder joints?*

 

[Fighterpilot]

Appreciate the pictures and schematics. Thanks

 

[bobofthenorth]

Rick's got a point.* I failed to mention in the description of our system that we can split the manifolds which allows us to draw each engine from a separate tank or cross over so that one engine feeds from the opposite side of the boat.* And similar with the returns.* That's probably a really important feature.

 

[Marin]

Jenny wrote:
RickB, you are living in a dream world.* Your goal in life appears to be an authority in nautical systems but obviously without any real world knowledge or experience.

*Just a cautionary suggestion here but before slamming someone's lack of experience based on what one assumes to be true, it is usually a good idea to first determine if the person really does lack experience.* If they do, then slam away *

But in the case of Rick, to assume he has no real world experience is a REALLY bad assumption.* Regardless of how one views his approach to posts on TF, his clients are yacht and megayacht owners and operators all over the world, and, from what he has told me, his responsibilities include the design, installation, operation, repair, and crew training on a variety of marine systems.* He's been doing this a long time and, based on the scale of a couple of projects he's briefly described to me, he's real good at it.* His clients are the kind of people who can afford the best and afford to hire someone else if they aren't satisfied.

I can't say if he's right on everything he says on TF because most of the discussions he participates in are a long ways over my level of knowledge.* But whether or not one likes the way he expresses himself, I don't think it's valid to assume that he doesn't know what he's talking about, or that what he says is not based on real-world knowledge or experience.

I believe it's a bad idea to make assumptions about the experience level of anyone on TF unless they come right out and say they're a newbie.* I*made*an assumption*quite awhile ago about Eric and while it took too long to sink in, I came to realize I could not have been more wrong about his level of nautical*knowledge and*experience, both of which I will never come close to* achieving in my lifetime.* We may not always agree, but I would be a fool to attribute those issues we don't agree on to a lack of knowledge or experience on his part.* More likely, it's due to MY lack of knowledge or experience.

So be careful out there.......

 

[FF]

Lets hope Rick B has the time to post a "proper" fuel setup.

 

[RickB]

Fighterpilot wrote:
twin engines, two tanks, does anyone have a picture of their fuel valving set up or a schematic?

*Here you go ... depending on your existing tank fittings this may require alteration.

*

 

[RickB]

Almost without exception, large yachts intended for "long range" operations are fitted with two separate day tanks that are valved to supply each main engine and generator separately or not as desired. Normal practice is to keep the centrifuge online and discharging to one or both day tanks that when full overflow through a "bullseye" to a centerline tank which also supplys the centrifuge. When the centerline level drops to a certain point the centrifuge suction is selected to a fuel storage tank.

The object of a good design is that the failure of a single valve or pump or component* will not lead to a complete loss of propulsion.

 

[sunchaser]

DIck**- Questions/comments

1. In your case, it seems 250 gallons is more than a day tank. In my case, with*a 5gph or so*fuel burn I have two 80 gallon day tanks that can be used at will.
2. Why Racors and not multi stage spin ons
3. What line size and pump gpm do you use for polishing
4. Do you intend to use your vessel for blue water cruising, island hopping or ----
5. Does your system require a fuel pump for engine operation beyond the on engine

 

[RickB]

Jenny wrote:What caused me to make the comment is the lack of understanding of the concept of a day tank ...

*Do you understand the concept now?*

 

[RickB]

Jenny wrote:
In retrospect*I should not have posted the design because we are obviously talking about different types of vessels with*different intended uses.*

I guess if there is one thing that a person in this group can take away from this contibution is that it's perfectly okay to use off the shelf single flow gas rated valves* it.

Your boat doesn't look any different than the* boats owned by nearly all the members of this forum. From your description it doesn't appear to be used any differently either.

If you spent some time reading the previous forum posts on fuel systems you would have discovered that almost everyone who installs or replaces a fuel valve gets a ball valve from Home Depot.

One thing to take away from this is that if you are "designing" in a vacuum, the product will probably suck. Intuitive?

I am still curious how you connected all those copper elbows and Ts.

 

[sunchaser]

Dick: Our* cruising habits and distances appear*to pretty well mimic yours. We are fortunate in the PNW to have good dealer fuel available (knock on wood)*virtually all the time and echoed by other cruisers.

Your schematic and postings are what this forum and the internet are all about - learning from the other guy as it may apply. I have found over the many decades that too much data can lead to lots of* questions and comments, some inane some not.* If you go to the recent "repairs" thread you will see all sorts of experience, knowledge and dollars being spent on this sport/hobby/lifestyle. Some of the experiences are* great to know about, take Peter B's anchor rode swap story or Gonzo's many "What do you think about" questions.

I appreciated your posting as it got me thinking about a very black magic subject - clean fuel, ULSD and remedies. For more black magic read AlgaeX, Valvetec, Amsoile, Gulf Coast filters etc websites. Credit to you for doing it the old fashioned way - cleaning the tanks and good filters.

 

[av8r]

Rick

Thanks for posting your comments and the fuel system diagram.* We are new to trawler ownership and I was quite surprised that both engines fed off a common manifold with no way of going "tank-to-engine."* I would have assumed most boats with offshore capability would be set up to minimize any single-point failure modes, and plan to modify our system to match your diagram.

Any comments on Seaboard Marine's multistage filtering set-ups?

 

[rwidman]

Two questions:

1. With a diesel engine where more fuel is drawn through the filters than is used and the excess returned to the tank(s), isn't the fuel "polished" to some extent without additional equipment?

2. If all the fuel tanks are filled at the same time from the same source, wouldn't the danger of contamination be the same for all tanks and that would negate any advantage of being able to isolate one or more tanks?

 

[sunchaser]

Randy

The points you raise evoke the "galley up or down" question.*

The fuel polishing marketers never mention that recirculating fuel indeed gets it*polished to a greater or lesser degree based upon the recirculation rate. Most will argue that continually drawing from*the tanks via a sump or sloped bottom (ala Nordhavn or my DeFever) is the best way to remove gunk.

If you have more than one tank, are about 1/2 full*and have*a fuel transfer system, it is easy to place the new fuel in a separate tank keeping your "safe" fuel all by itself. With more than 2 tanks it becomes even easier to isolate old vs new fuel.

Picking the right fuel supplier where we boat*(between San Diego and Juneau) has negated the bad fuel issue for us.*

 

[Codger2]

rwidman wrote:

1. With a diesel engine where more fuel is drawn through the filters than is used and the excess returned to the tank(s), isn't the fuel "polished" to some extent without additional equipment?

2. If all the fuel tanks are filled at the same time from the same source, wouldn't the danger of contamination be the same for all tanks and that would negate any advantage of being able to isolate one or more tanks?

IMHO, Yes & yes & I have a fuel poishing system that I wouldn't do again. I think your questions are right on the mark.

*

 

[av8r]

Rick
In a 2-tank, 2-engine system like your diagram for FighterPilot, can the filters be located between the tank and the selector valve? This would allow feeding both engines through one filter while changing the other, if necessary.

 

[RickB]

The duplex filters allow one side to be changed while running on the other.

If you don't want to pay Racor's ransom on the duplex, you can just valve 2 filters to accomplish the same job but have to operate 2 valves rather than simply change a lever position.

 

[Jacques]

Rick,

Do you have a small drawing to illustrate your excellent suggestion.

I'm doing a plan to change my setup (two tanks, 1 engine and a generator). Currently there is a Racor 500 dedicated to each tank and a Racor 110 for the generator. Thus I have a "Gulf Coast F1" installed separately to polish and transfer the fuel.

After I read all yours exchanges on this subject, I think the best solution would be to use the filters that I have and add some valves to make a "Duplex".

Thank you for your help.

 

[sunvale]

Being new to the power boating scene, I need to ask the question, "what is fuel polishing and why is it needed".
What is entailed in the process and is there a link on this site were I can read up on it.
Thanks for allowing me to post this dumb question.
Peter

 

[JD]

Jacques wrote:

Rick,

Do you have a small drawing to illustrate your excellent suggestion.

I'm doing a plan to change my setup (two tanks, 1 engine and a generator). Currently there is a Racor 500 dedicated to each tank and a Racor 110 for the generator. Thus I have a "Gulf Coast F1" installed separately to polish and transfer the fuel.

After I read all yours exchanges on this subject, I think the best solution would be to use the filters that I have and add some valves to make a "Duplex".

Thank you for your help.

Rick seems to be off working so*here is a picture of the*one on my last sail boat.* It is two Racors and one tank but in your case you would use one more valve to select which tank you were getting fuel from.* You would also have to devise a fuel return system with two tanks where as with one it just returned to the original tank.

The valves are from a truck supplier and ares used for selecting saddle tanks.* The aft valve is the fuel supply from the tank.* The fuel goes into the bottom of the valve and*out the forward side to supply the forward filter or out the aft side to supply the aft filter*the direction of the valve*determines which of the two Racors it supplies.* The*forward valve gets it's fuel from either one or the other of the two Racors .* The forward filter supplies the forward side of the valve and the aft filter the aft side of the*valve the bottom is the exit of the valve and supplies the engine.* So if both valves are facing forward the forward filter is in play, if both are facing aft the aft filter is in play.* Either filter can be changed while the engine is running if need be but the one time I*did need it I was less than five miles from where we were headed and just changed to the other filter, never missed a beat and did the swap out at the dock.* I'm sorry that I don't have better pictures but these were taken from a phone.

Hope this helps.

*

-- Edited by JD on Sunday 12th of February 2012 11:02:08 AM