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Old 02-14-2011, 06:23 PM   #21
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Marin,* When you transfer fuel from your main tanks to your day tank do you*pump it thru a filter?. If so you are basically prepolishing every gallon of fuel you use.

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Old 02-14-2011, 06:53 PM   #22
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

When you polish the fuel and do not clean the tank....

"You are putting the baby back in the dirty diaper".

When we clean a tank, the by-product is polished fuel. There is a BIG difference in the two processes.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:57 PM   #23
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

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JohnP wrote:

Marin,* When you transfer fuel from your main tanks to your day tank do you*pump it thru a filter?. If so you are basically prepolishing every gallon of fuel you use.
No. The fuel transfers via gravity from the lowest point in each saddle tank directly into the day tank in the bilge.* From there, it is pulled out by the lift pump on each engine.* Of course the fuel goes through a Racor 500 before the pump on each engine and then*two spin-on Baldwins between each lift pump and each engine's*injection pump, so I suppose*you could say it's being "polished" between the day tank and the injection pump * But in that regard, every boat has a "polishing" system on it.

*
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:59 AM   #24
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

The fuel transfers via gravity from the lowest point in each saddle tank directly into the day tank in the bilge.

The "lowest point" is where the water collects.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:12 PM   #25
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

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FF wrote:The "lowest point" is where the water collects.
Not if that's where your draining the fuel out of.* It goes into the day tank, which also feeds the engines from the lowest point (there is no pickup tube) which means that any water that ends up in any tank is separated out by the filters.* Water only collects at the bottom of a tank if there is no way to get it out.* Far better to never let water collect at all in a tank than provide a place for it to sit.

*
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:53 PM   #26
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

my boat had been sitting a while when i bought her and she had almost full tanks, my diesel mechanic recommended that i have the diesel polished.
as part of the process, the tanks were also polished and cleaned.
after removing all the fuel and while the fuel was being polished through their system, basically the tech drilled a couple large (3-4 inch) inspection holes in the top of the fuel tanks, inserted what looks like a plumbing snake. the snake banged around inside the tanks and sucked out all the gunk which might have collected in the tanks over 20+ years.
it cost around $1k and seemed well worth the effort. the tech says many boaters have their tanks cleaned once a year.
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:28 PM   #27
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Delfin has 2400 gallons of fuel tankage, so polishing is pretty important to us since it takes awhile to burn that fuel.* We polish routinely at 30 microns, and transfer at 10 microns into the day tank or boiler tank.* From there, the fuel passes through a 2 micron filter before hitting the CAT or Northern Lights OEM filters.

The picture below is the 30 micron filter after polishing tanks over a 12 month period. I can't tell you how many times the fuel has passed through this filter, but that is probably less important than the amount of gunk trapped.* I looked at the transfer filter, and it isn't ready to change yet.* Pretty good argument for polishing fuel, IMHO.

By the way, my fuel comes from a dealer who is 5 miles from the refinery, so when it's loaded on, it doesn't get any fresher.

[img]download.spark?ID=876347&aBID=115492[/img]
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:47 PM   #28
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Quote:
Delfin wrote:I can't tell you how many times the fuel has passed through this filter, but that is probably less important than the amount of gunk trapped.
It looks like normal stable asphaltenes to me. Since the filter has been exposed to countless gallons of fuel that has gone through the engine and been heated thoroughly for who knows how many times it looks pretty good for being there a year.

What is the picture supposed to show anyway?

Even the cleanest newest fuel has asphaltenes in it. Heat it over about 130-150 degrees passing through the injector and back to the tank it will have quite a few more. Keep adding oxygen by letting it splash back into the tank and it will oxidize and darken.* It's the nature of the chemical.

But, polishing is an exercise of faith, not science, so do what you like, just don't expect to convert everyone else.

*
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:23 PM   #29
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Fuel polishing during layup periods.

The fuel has never been heated because it has never been returned from the engine.* We use a day tank, which would be the return point for circulated fuel.* This is fuel from the other 2300 gallons of tankage. * Not having a coherent understanding of what is going on has never stopped you from weighing in in the past, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you are, once again, uninformed, but convinced in your opinions.

I suppose the point is that diesel fuel has precipitating components that end up somewhere.* Since you don't own a boat, perhaps this isn't important to you Rick.* To others who do, it is.

So, I'm curious, since the fuel I have been polishing has not been "Heat(ed) over about 130-150 degrees passing through the injector", nor has it darkened, is it your position that removing the natural asphaltene precipitates in diesel that occur without heat has no value?

We'll put you down as one who doesn't believe in polishing fuel, and I am sure than none of the boats that are owned by the people who hire you would have such systems against your advice.




-- Edited by Delfin on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 11:04:16 PM
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Old 02-17-2011, 04:54 AM   #30
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Far better to never let water collect at all in a tank than provide a place for it to sit.



Thats a great theory , but hard to do in the real world.

The simplest tried and true system is a sump and a pump , to catch the water below the tank bottom.


It would have been an extra $10 on a new build , so don't look for it.
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:01 AM   #31
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Quote:




Delfin wrote:
is it your position that removing the natural asphaltene precipitates in diesel that occur without heat has no value?

I shouldn't be surprised that you are, once again, uninformed, but convinced in your opinions.

Since you don't own a boat, perhaps this isn't important to you Rick.* To others who do, it is.


I am sure than none of the boats that are owned by the people who hire you would have such systems against your advice.
I believe that attempting to remove the naturally occuring but stable asphaltenes is a waste of time and money. Installing a special system to do so might be fun and provide bragging rights at the yacht club bar and impress the uninformed but does it extend the life of your fuel? Not by enought to justify the complexity, fire hazard, and maintenance costs. Don't buy more fuel than you are willing to keep for however long you are comfortable storing it.

Like many of your attempts to discredit me, Delfin, you don't have a clue what you are talking about and surely don't know anything about me personally. If you can't discuss these issues in a civil manner then please, just go away.

First, I do own a boat, a 48 twin engine foot trawler. Second, my previous boat was a 65 foot tug with over 4000 gallons of fuel, much of it very old by your standards.

Why you figure my boat ownership status relates to the veracity of my advice is something only you can answer, but if that was some kind of cheap shot attempt discredit me because you are incapable of contesting the facts then it says more about your character than my knowledge or experience.

I doubt if anyone in Boeing's technical or operational divisions own an airliner. Does that mean in your eyes they shouldn't advise airlines about how to keep their aircraft running? Does the CFO of a large company have to own a large company? At least try and find something solid if you want to attack me.

None of the yachts that I deal with daily have "polishing systems" installed. Those things are the recreational affectation of people like you who believe that buying a boat somehow endows you with marine engineering knowledge and experience.

I could care less how you waste your money or pretend to engineer your boat, it's your boat, your hobby and you aren't paying me to advise you.

When someone here asks advice or opinion about a system or technique I know something about I will provide my opinion based on years of doing the things I talk about. I don't provide advice on subjects I have no knowledge or experience. I don't get paid for it and don't have any stake in whether my advice is taken or not. I look at this site as way to "give back" some of the things others have taught me and I have learned through a career at sea and working on marine machinery. I didn't come here to fend off your kind of crap and people like you drive people away.



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Old 02-17-2011, 07:57 AM   #32
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

The fuel polishing systems of choice for industrial organic solution use are Alfa Laval centrifuges or their clones. Many appear on larger yachts as has been*noted by RickB over the years. With the newer Tier II -III - IV engines perfect filtering in front of the injectors is a must, This is why spin on filters are now common in a 30, 10 and 2 (on engine) micron*configuration. Whether* paper towels or systems like Gonzo is setting up, you cannot get away from a good pre engine filtering setup for the new Tier X engines. And this 3 stage system allows you to do away with fuel polishing if you have* twin/valved over sized 30 u spin on "mud" filter - for old or new engines.

Fuel polishing will not hurt you, but it is not mandatory for clean fuel to the engine IMHO.
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:24 AM   #33
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

My apologies Rick.* I have never seen any reference to your own boat, and certainly didn't mean to suggest that not owning a trawler or boat of the size owned by those who use this site would disqualify you from offering frequently informed and knowledgeable information.* I'm sure we all benefit from your knowledge.

Am I to understand that the vessels you work on lack pre-filtration, since it is a waste of time, and your recommendation would be not to bother with it?
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:02 AM   #34
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Quote:
Delfin wrote:My apologies Rick.*
Apology accepted.

Sunchaser pretty much nailed it.

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Old 02-17-2011, 09:21 AM   #35
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:
Fuel polishing will not hurt you, but it is not mandatory for clean fuel to the engine IMHO.
I had a fuel polishing system installed in my boat about 4 years ago and was sooo
proud of it. Since that time, (the last 2 or 3 years) I have concluded that it is not
needed and is a waste of money & space. I think we can thank Bill Parletore and
Steve D' at PMM for selling the fuel polishing. Just before Bill retired , he was
writing about extending this line of thought to "water polishing."

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Old 02-17-2011, 09:36 AM   #36
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Walt, as with most absolutes, I'm not sure it's always true that fuel polishing systems on boats are a waste.* The size of tanks, the time it takes to burn the fuel, the propensity for condensation, the condition of the fuel as it goes into the tank (think Southern Mexico drum transfer), the presence or absence of a day tank - these would seem to be variables that might argue for polishing.*

In my situation, as with most trawlers, you are going to add or precipitate out contaminants.* It just becomes a matter of where you want those contaminants to end up.* If you have sump drains that you can reach on all tanks, much, but not all can end up in a paper cup.* My preference is to clean it before it hits the day tank, as it is for a lot of folks.
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:42 AM   #37
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

I guess I should have asked more questions and done more research before I got this deep into it. I am a little bummed that the same people that vigorously encouraged me and my efforts (greatly appreciated BTW), neglected to really inform me that polishing is not needed (in their opinion). Had I been armed with that info, I might have, for the sake of costs, cut that out of the rig. But I guess that's water under the bridge right now. I'll be trying final mock-up tomorrow. Still, it HAS been fun and I HAVE learned quite a bit.

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Old 02-17-2011, 10:57 AM   #38
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

The real "issue" here is that one does not always know everyone's background on open forums like this therefore you really don't know the knowledge base behind the posting.
Plus on a subject like this usually the folks for it want to be heard, those against are usually not as enthusiastic.

So don't look back and shoulda,woulda, coulda, just move on.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:17 AM   #39
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

Gonzo - I did not ask the Forum members if our boat, this winter, *needed new cushions in the salon, new NN3, new exhaust elbows, anti siphon loops installed on the exhaust, EGT gauges added*or prop speed touched up. I can only but imagine the responses. (Too late, they're all done)

What I have done on occasion is PM or ask some members for their advice. You are not throwing your money away and as Jay Leonard says it is a great learning experience for all of us as you unrelentingly press on. Keep up the good work and don't look back.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:45 AM   #40
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RE: Fuel polishing during layup periods.

I've asked for input on many subjects (helman's layout, hull color, stabilizing sails, etc.)* Since there were no "right" answers, the responses had wide-ranging and opposite answers/opinions.* Neverthess, useful information was provided and helped me make better*(for me) decisions and was*worth the occasional unhelpful*harassment or wisecrack.*
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