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Old 01-13-2020, 02:48 PM   #1
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Fuel Manifold Diagram/Design

Hi,
I am designing a revamped fuel system and wanted to get some input from this group. Attached is currently what I am thinking. Arrows indicate direction of flow, I haven't gone so far as to show where each valve goes but that's a next step. Each tank would have its own polishing system on a timer running periodically, since they will be automatic I am wondering if pressure gauges makes sense on them as well so I can remotely monitor if a filter needs changing?

Also note both the Genset and Main have fuel filter systems, I just need to get on the boat to document what they are.

New to this so any feedback of advice would be appreciated.
Arthur
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File Type: pdf Sea Bear Fuel System.pdf (27.3 KB, 74 views)
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Old 01-13-2020, 08:51 PM   #2
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There are lots of ways to do this, but here are some thoughts:


- Do you want to run a rigorous day tank protocol? By that I mean all consumers draw from and return to the day tank only, and fuel only gets into the day tank via filtered transfer. Then the other tanks are just quarantined storage for purchased fuel. On our last and next boats all draw and return is from/to the day tank. I think this is the ultimate in protection against bad fuel.



- I think the way you are set up fuel consumption and fuel transfer have to be from the same tank. This was the case on my last boat and it took a lot of flexibility out of transferring while underway or otherwise running a fuel consumer like heat or generator. On our next boat there is a transfer from and transfer to manifold so you can move (and polish at the same time) from/to any tank independent of fuel consumers which can keep on running.


- It's really important that the returns not be inadvertently closed off. Always returning to the day tank simplifies this. Mine are always open with the handles removed, and one handle in a holder as a "tool" to operate a valve with no handle. Some engines, and I'm not sure if your 6068 is one of them or not, will blow out the fuel injection system if the return is blocked. This has caused very, very expensive damage on some boats when a valve was incorrectly positioned. Some boats remove the return valves completely, but I have found that to create another possible problem. If the return can be submerged at any fuel level, then you can get back siphoning through the return line when changing fuel filters. Consider this carefully before removing the return valves.


- On boat's I've had there is a single transfer/polish pump and filter. This might be a simplification that would work on your boat.


- In a perfect world, draw for polishing should come from the very bottom of the tank, ideally from a sump of some sort. That's where the water and crap will settle.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:47 AM   #3
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Thanks! As always, great questions.

1. No I don't run a day tank protocol, but would like to be able to, right now my home fueling port (Anacortes WA) is next to a giant refinery, and my understanding is they get their fuel from that source which also explains the best price in the state. I am not worried about fuel quality at home but have future offshore plans a few years from now once her retrofit is complete and I can retire.

2. Really good call out, does this more detailed design address that? I used the second set of input/output on the day tank to separate the fuel polishing and transfer from the main draw, but put valves to run from any tank in the boat in case of emergency.

3. Good call on the siphon effect. Noted the concern of no return by putting locked, via zip tie or removing the handle.

4. Noted and added a Gulf Filter followed by my current Racor's to the xfer pump, this could be used to polish any tank (if I got my design right).

5. Maybe a project for another day
I did have her tanks fully emptied, inspected and cleaned out when I bought her, they said they were in great condition and almost completely clean.


I am thinking of making these manifolds myself, thoughts on me welding 304 or 316 stainless tees together to create the exact one I want, I've got a decent set of welding experience and can pressure test as needed.


Thanks again for your thoughts!
Arthur
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:57 AM   #4
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Ahh, one more, was thinking about using a Maretron vacuum transducer on the supply side and a pressure on the return side, pointless or interesting?
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Old 01-14-2020, 01:32 AM   #5
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During my refit almost 8 years ago I replaced all 4 tanks. One was weeping and I felt it prudent to replace them all. Original capacity was 3,785 litres, now it is 4700 litres by virtue of enlarged aft tanks.

For the new wing tanks I created day tanks of 385 litres on both port and starboard side. That was about 1/3 of the original tanks. The engine supply and return manifolds can draw from any tank and return to any tank, but in practice the valves are set for using the day tanks only. To fill the day tanks I use a Reverso fuel polisher, as the day tanks have no deck fill. At the time the yard indicated that it would be cheaper to buy the Reverso than to create something from components. If you already have some of the parts required then that may not be the case, but it is worth checking out.

In the top pic you may notice a 'prime' label bottom left of the black polish return label. That allows the Reverso to send fuel through the dual Racors, which can be useful when changing filters. Each engine has dual Racors in addition to the two filters on the 6068's themselves. I draw from one, but in the event of a blocked filter can simply move the lever to the other filter.
Click image for larger version

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The middle pic shows the engine supply manifold and the dual Racors for the port engine. There is a return manifold to the left of that with the dual Racors for the Starboard engine. Oddly, in these pics the engine supply is set to Stbd Aft tank, but so is the return. Normally they are set for the day tanks.

Click image for larger version

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Click image for larger version

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ID:	98322
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:13 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Insequent View Post
During my refit almost 8 years ago I replaced all 4 tanks. One was weeping and I felt it prudent to replace them all. Original capacity was 3,785 litres, now it is 4700 litres by virtue of enlarged aft tanks.

For the new wing tanks I created day tanks of 385 litres on both port and starboard side. That was about 1/3 of the original tanks. The engine supply and return manifolds can draw from any tank and return to any tank, but in practice the valves are set for using the day tanks only. To fill the day tanks I use a Reverso fuel polisher, as the day tanks have no deck fill. At the time the yard indicated that it would be cheaper to buy the Reverso than to create something from components. If you already have some of the parts required then that may not be the case, but it is worth checking out.

In the top pic you may notice a 'prime' label bottom left of the black polish return label. That allows the Reverso to send fuel through the dual Racors, which can be useful when changing filters. Each engine has dual Racors in addition to the two filters on the 6068's themselves. I draw from one, but in the event of a blocked filter can simply move the lever to the other filter.
Attachment 98320

The middle pic shows the engine supply manifold and the dual Racors for the port engine. There is a return manifold to the left of that with the dual Racors for the Starboard engine. Oddly, in these pics the engine supply is set to Stbd Aft tank, but so is the return. Normally they are set for the day tanks.

Attachment 98321
Attachment 98322

Very nicely done!!
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:31 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Arthurc View Post
Ahh, one more, was thinking about using a Maretron vacuum transducer on the supply side and a pressure on the return side, pointless or interesting?

I like the newer drawing, especially the "split" manifolds.


And I was going to ask about the transducers. What are you wanting to monitor?


If tank level, I would probably tee them into the bottom sight glass ports, with one transducer per tank. They work really well for fluid level measurement.


If filter obstruction, then they need to be on the output of the filters. I assume you have external Racors or the like not shown for the main and gen and possibly the heater too? And you would need one per filter that you want to measure.



Also, the transducers are different for measuring tank level vs fuel restriction.


Oh, and I see you have a Racor 75900 (dual 900s) for the transfer filter. Do you have duals for convenience of switching and changing filters, or is it for flow capacity? I ask because the Racor 900 is only rated for max 90 gph, so to support the 180 gph pump you would need to run both in parallel. That's fine, but you could also use a single Racor 1000 which is rated for 180 gph, and is probably a lot less expensive than a 75900. And if you want duals for convenience, I think they need to be 1000s, so a 751000 to meet the 180 gph flow rate.


And almost completely off topic, what software do you use for the drawings? I find AutoCAD tedious and overly complicated for drawings like this, so instead use Visio. But my version of Visio is ancient and getting a bit long in the tooth, so I'm somewhat on the lookout for a replacement.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:21 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurc View Post
Thanks! As always, great questions.

1. No I don't run a day tank protocol, but would like to be able to, right now my home fueling port (Anacortes WA) is next to a giant refinery, and my understanding is they get their fuel from that source which also explains the best price in the state. I am not worried about fuel quality at home but have future offshore plans a few years from now once her retrofit is complete and I can retire.

2. Really good call out, does this more detailed design address that? I used the second set of input/output on the day tank to separate the fuel polishing and transfer from the main draw, but put valves to run from any tank in the boat in case of emergency.

3. Good call on the siphon effect. Noted the concern of no return by putting locked, via zip tie or removing the handle.

4. Noted and added a Gulf Filter followed by my current Racor's to the xfer pump, this could be used to polish any tank (if I got my design right).

5. Maybe a project for another day
I did have her tanks fully emptied, inspected and cleaned out when I bought her, they said they were in great condition and almost completely clean.


I am thinking of making these manifolds myself, thoughts on me welding 304 or 316 stainless tees together to create the exact one I want, I've got a decent set of welding experience and can pressure test as needed.


Thanks again for your thoughts!
Arthur
This is similar to the scheme I have. Fuel can be transferred to and from any tank and we run only on the day tank.

I canít use the supply manifold on my setup because it draws from down tubes. For purposes of polishing, I wanted to draw from the lowest possible point on each tank and fortunately our tanks are plumbed that way.
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Old 01-14-2020, 12:05 PM   #9
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And I was going to ask about the transducers. What are you wanting to monitor?


If tank level, I would probably tee them into the bottom sight glass ports, with one transducer per tank. They work really well for fluid level measurement.


If filter obstruction, then they need to be on the output of the filters. I assume you have external Racors or the like not shown for the main and gen and possibly the heater too? And you would need one per filter that you want to measure.



Also, the transducers are different for measuring tank level vs fuel restriction.


Oh, and I see you have a Racor 75900 (dual 900s) for the transfer filter. Do you have duals for convenience of switching and changing filters, or is it for flow capacity? I ask because the Racor 900 is only rated for max 90 gph, so to support the 180 gph pump you would need to run both in parallel. That's fine, but you could also use a single Racor 1000 which is rated for 180 gph, and is probably a lot less expensive than a 75900. And if you want duals for convenience, I think they need to be 1000s, so a 751000 to meet the 180 gph flow rate.


And almost completely off topic, what software do you use for the drawings? I find AutoCAD tedious and overly complicated for drawings like this, so instead use Visio. But my version of Visio is ancient and getting a bit long in the tooth, so I'm somewhat on the lookout for a replacement.
1. For the transducers are you thinking I could monitor level with pressure transducers? I hadn't thought about that and really good call out, I have the old float style gauges with Maretron senders but they are unreliable at best. I was thinking about monitoring pressure/vacuum in the fuel system but that may not make sense?

2. For the Racor's I just have the 75900's on the boat, would you suggest keeping them and running both to get the 180gpm or get the 1000 and maybe add the 75900 somewhere else or remove it?

3. I use omnigraffle mostly (on Mac) for this sort of stuff, in this case I was lazy and just used powerpoint. I actually find for simple diagrams it works really well, if getting complex or needing specific circuit/mech shapes I use omnigraffle.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:19 PM   #10
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1. For the transducers are you thinking I could monitor level with pressure transducers? I hadn't thought about that and really good call out, I have the old float style gauges with Maretron senders but they are unreliable at best. I was thinking about monitoring pressure/vacuum in the fuel system but that may not make sense?

Yes, they work extremely well as fluid level sensors. You use a transducer/sensor for each tank, located at or below the bottom of the tank. Then each sensor connects to a Maretron FPM100 which can accept up to 6 sensors. The fluid level can then be calibrated for any shape tank, and is way more accurate than float gauges.


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2. For the Racor's I just have the 75900's on the boat, would you suggest keeping them and running both to get the 180gpm or get the 1000 and maybe add the 75900 somewhere else or remove it?

I would use the 75900 for your main engine, and get a 1000 for the transfer filter. The whole point of the 75xxx is the ability to "instantly" change filters just by moving the selector lever, and that matters most with your main, especially if its stuttering in a bad sea way. Then you can change the spent filter cartridge at a relaxed pace.


When transferring or polishing, it's not an emergency if the filter plugs up. You can pause the transfer, change the cartridge, and resume. So no real need for a tandem filter.


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3. I use omnigraffle mostly (on Mac) for this sort of stuff, in this case I was lazy and just used powerpoint. I actually find for simple diagrams it works really well, if getting complex or needing specific circuit/mech shapes I use omnigraffle.

Thanks, I'll check it out.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:29 PM   #11
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Good to know on the transducers, are there specific ones you would recommend (I think they have a bunch of psi ratings? I have a FPM100 in the ER for my water maker and FW system monitoring so easy add, im assuming just adding a transducer on a T at the draw fitting (the fitting on the bottom of the tank) on each tank will work?

I will look at what my main engine fuel filters are as I didn't write them down, they may be a 1000 and in that case I could swap them if the flow requirements are right.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:23 PM   #12
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Updated diagram showing changes/suggestions. Also Added an intake for a bladder tank which I may add at some point if doing a crossing.

For the Maretron Transducer couldn't I run a hose to it as long as its below the bottom of the tank? Thinking about my ability to change it out since the two fuel connections on the bottom of the day tank are very hard to access.
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