Fuel Contamination (and Racor Filter Help)

[FlyWright]

That is interesting. I never discussed fiberglass tanks with him and I've never seen any either.

Having owned a boat with FG tanks, would you recommend them as a suitable replacement for steel tanks?

 

[CPseudonym]

My 2 cents is design/install standards is far more important than material choice. FF calls most of them fuel boxes and that's a great description of over 95% of the boats I inspected pre-purchase. Flat panels form fitted to maximize capacity do not lend themselves to ease of maintenance and periodic cleaning.

I have a 47 year old steel tank, shaped like a tank that should well outlive the boat around it.

 

[Art]

All visible exterior areas of both our 100 gallon Tolly’s aluminum tanks appear to be in real good condition. Although they look as new... I believe they are 1977 originals?? I've searched all enterable areas with an extender camera’s snake-end that has lights for illumination and a large view screen at home base. I've also used 3M candle power spot light to further eliminate tank tops, sides and rear. I can’t see the complete rear of each tank as they are very close to hull sides, I am a bit concerned that some moisture may have entered via hull vent louvers... either by sea spray or hosing the boat down. As we know... water moisture held against aluminum can corrode that metal to point of failure (that includes internal water pockets). So far so good, not one whiff of gasoline ever upon my many, many entries into engine compartment. I’m kind of a junkie with my engine and tank and genset area, in that I often wake very early while aboard and to my added enjoyment end up down there for at least a few minutes – simply checking things out!

Tank interior condition is an unknown. When we acquired our Tolly there was water and schmeg in the gas; I had to often clean/replace the filters. Once I began treating the fuel in tanks with plenty of Soltron additive the water and schmeg within months disappeared and by using Soltron as prescribed (actually I use about twice the volume recommended – which they say in perfectly OK) for many years now I’ve not found a drop of water or any schmeg in my filters. IMHO... Soltron works wonders to keep gas or diesel clean and in top condition.

Long and short of it for our Tolly fuel tanks: This is a wait and see (errr sniff) situation! I sure do not look forward the possibilities of new “exactly same” tanks placed where they reside. But, I have a good plan of action already conceived as to how we can collapse them via vacuum pump for removal as well as to how to and where to have similar gallons placed into the boat.

I am always interested to learn input from boaters regarding fuel tank materials as well as most other items having to do with gas or diesel storage, equipment, and handling.

Happy Boating Daze! – Art

Picts represent what I mention!

 

[psneeld]

integral fiberglass tanks are great if they were decently constructed and of good resin.

for smaller tanks, poly tanks are great too...

aluminum got a bad name with high sulfur fuels as did stainless if I remember correctly...but the high sulfur fuels are pretty well gone now.

mild steel/black iron is great if properly installed and maintained...thick steel even with minor rust episodes can easily last 30-50 years with less than perfect maintenance.

 

[Codger2]

Having owned a boat with FG tanks, would you recommend them as a suitable replacement for steel tanks?

Yes, but for diesel only. If used for water storage, they do impart a bad taste to the water . Also, should not be used for gasoline that contains ethanol.

As a diesel tank material, I understand it's an excellent choice as nothing attacks it and it doesn't corrode. (Even sitting in water for 35 years.) Same as a fiberglass hull.

Here's part of an article out of Passagemaker Magazine.

 

[AusCan]

My 30 year old stainless tanks diesel tanks are hanging in there. I have no inspection panels, and I am sure the any tanks of this age could use a good cleaning. My fuel outlets are very close to the bottom, and I would expect there is a small amount of "gunk" collected below this point.

So far I've only blocked up filters once, after a few days of rough seas a couple months ago. I was close to home, and trying to get there before dark. The revs would intermittently drop to an idle over the final 5 miles, but she wouldn't die. With my little 36 hp fuel sipper, enough fuel got through to get me back to the dock. When I changed the filters, I couldn't believe how it kept running with the crap that was in the primary filters.

Using rough seas to clean a fuel tank may be risky, but my alternative is to pull the engine and the tanks, due to the tight "ER" I have to play in. I will just keep a good supply of filters on board until the timing is right for the big overhaul.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

My tanks are very thick above normal according to Duke. He told me that fiberglass tanks are more suseptable to condensation than other tanks. He finished today on both tanks, he instructed me on my Racors and I will change them tomorrow.

 

[Codger2]

My tanks are very thick above normal according to Duke. He told me that fiberglass tanks are more suseptable to condensation than other tanks.

I'm having a hard time swallowing that as if that were the case, we'd all be running around with our FG hulls sweating.

 

[Art]

Yes, but for diesel only. If used for water storage, they do impart a bad taste to the water . Also, should not be used for gasoline that contains ethanol.

As a diesel tank material, I understand it's an excellent choice as nothing attacks it and it doesn't corrode. (Even sitting in water for 35 years.) Same as a fiberglass hull.

Walt - Only problem I see is that any fuel might affect FRP tanks... in that, water can penetrate gel coat and produce blisters - some water intrusions even get into the glass fabric causing delimitations from the resin. Therefore - it stands to reason that most if not all fuels would also eventually permeate FRP tanks. Especially being that gasoline with ethanol (guess e dissolves gel coat and resin) is not good inside FRP, as you intone by mentioning diesel only!

 

[FlyWright]

OK...back to this old thread...

I'm replacing my fuel shut off gate valves with quality ball valves. It appears thread tape was used on the old connections. My plan was to use thread dope/sealant instead. Now I'm wondering if that's the best idea. What say you who know these things?

Tape or dope?

 

[LarryM]

Al,

Your fittings likely have NPF or UNF threads. Both of these thread types are designed to work with a sealant. Some mechanics will tell you they've used regular old gas resistant teflon tape (yellow stuff) with success. This is not recommended because it risks breaking free. Liquid or paste type thread sealants are kinder to sensitive components down stream. Mechanics repairing injectors, fuel pumps and carburetors can tell you first hand it is not uncommon to trace fault in the fuel component to clogging from a piece of teflon tape that washed off the ends of the threads, clogging in the first tiny micron orifice it encounters, if not the fuel pump then an injector. Either way it's a costly repair. Liquid or paste type sealant won't clog. For gasoline or diesel, I prefer regular old Aviation Form-a-gasket Number 3 which specifically states solvent resistance to gasoline, especially on modern engines that use injectors rather than carburetors, and any diesel engine.

Permatex #3H, Aviation Form-A-Gasket is a moderately thin sealant, but forms a SIGNIFICANT seal. Apply to clean surfaces, and allow to air dry to a tacky surface before assembling (typically a few minutes). From the label: "For use on most types of gaskets, machined surfaces and screw thread connections of airplane and automobile engines. - Applied as a liquid - changes to a paste in a few seconds - Pressure resistant and leak proof to high octane gasoline, grease and lubricating oils (up to 400F) - Resists hot and cold water, anti-freeze, glycerine, fuel oil, kerosene, butane and other fluids"

There are certainly other brands of thread sealant that will work just fine, but I continue to use #3 because it has never failed me in over 40 years of messing around with boats, aircraft and cars. The main point I'm trying to make is not to use teflon tape . . . . . IMHO.

Hope this helps.

Larry
m/v Boomarang

 

[FlyWright]

Thanks for that, Larry! I had already picked up a fresh tube of Permatex 14 thread sealant with PTFE (teflon). Looking at the specs, it looks like just the thing for this application. Like you, I like the Permatex products.

I really appreciate your timely assist on this! Fuel transfer in progress!

 

[LarryM]

Thanks for that, Larry! I had already picked up a fresh tube of Permatex 14 thread sealant with PTFE (teflon). Looking at the specs, it looks like just the thing for this application. Like you, I like the Permatex products.

I really appreciate your timely assist on this! Fuel transfer in progress!

Al,

That looks perfect! I am about to plumb a new tank selector valve and relocate the Racor. I am going to try #14 and, I'll bet it will be easier to apply. Thanks for the info.

Larry
m/v Boomarang

 

[FF]

My long term solution to loose fuel fills or dead O rings.

Remove the fuel fill from the deck . Purchase a 6 inch plastic removable deck opening,
or with Yachtbucks Bronze 6 inch deck plates, install .

Install a short nipple in the end of the old fill hose, and a std pipe cap on the nipple.

Be sure to run a flex web ground line from the nipple to the fuel tank.

Now even IF the 6 inch deck plate is lost overboard , water may enter the boat , but NOT the fuel fill line.

Those 6 inch bronze deck plates are expensive if you loose one!

KISS!

 

[RickB]

Tape or dope?

Look at this stuff, it is very good for fuel fittings:

THREAD SEALANTS

Or this, which I really like because it is a "universal" thread sealer that one can will serve every project that comes along:

http://www.rectorseal.com/pds-pdf/dsno5.pdf

You don't want a hard setting material and most of us who use that sort of product stopped using Permatex years ago because it is messy and not all that great for your application.

 

[FlyWright]

Success! Today I finished the shut off valve change out and replacing all fuel filters. Those little boost pumps worked great as transfer pumps and moved about 30 gph. They also filled the role of boost pump to prime my primary and secondary filters and made that job much easier.

Those pumps aren't wired to anything, so I used a jump start battery to power them. Then when that died, I connected some unused wires from a nearby bundle to the ship's batteries. Combined with a remote start switch like this...

...I was able to activate the pump as needed to prime the filters. Next project will be to hard wire a 3-position switch in the ER for each pump...ON/OFF/MOMENTARY ON. This will make them available for maintenance purposes and as a backup boost pump in the event of a lift pump failure.

Any suggestions for a quality 3-position switch for the job?

 

[N4712]

Here's a switch that meets the criteria.http://marine.gdcomus.com/marine_pr...Switches_Marine_Boat_Products_UPC_211168.html

 

[markpierce]

Spent most of the day observing Al working hard. (Watching people doing physical labor is my third-favorite pastime.) Despite the 63-degree temperature, he kept the sweat up. He tells me now the next battle is to work on battery connections. ... Al loves gadgets.

 

[markpierce]

My "auxiliary" fuel pump. Was part of a fuel polishing system, but now just used for engine priming and moving fuel among the Coot's several fuel tanks.

 

[Xsbank]

It seems to me that if you have spooge in your tank, it will settle on the bottom, where any water will also end up. If your pump will not actually be strong enough to stir up the bottom you will not be "polishing" any fuel.

Diesel comes from the refinery with some water in it, then it gets handled, tanked, trucked, delivered and then it sits for a while, all the while gathering more water. It then gets pumped into your boat where it will likely sit for a while too. If you keep the fuel moving, agitated if you will, the water will stay in suspension. When it sits quietly for 24 hours or so, it settles out. To the bottom of the tank. It is the water in the fuel that provides the medium for the growth of biological stuff.

If our Racors are spec'd properly, the turbine part is designed to spin out the water. If you don't have a filter turbine, some water goes through your engine. However, having stated that about Racors, I have never read anything that proves that the system actually works.

Anyway, with all due respect, unless you have provided a pump that makes the inside of your tank look like a washing machine with the lid up, you are fooling yourself if you think you are "polishing" your fuel. However, if the small pump you are using runs 24 hours a day, you might accomplish something as the fuel never gets to settle.

 

[FF]

Any suggestions for a quality 3-position switch for the job?

Cole Hersee with an aircraft style switch guard .Marine not auto built to switch DC

Cole Hersee Co.

www.[B]colehersee[/B].com/‎
Manufacturer of a wide range of electromechanical components such as solenoids, switches, connectors and cable assemblies, protection circuits, alarms and ...



>When it sits quietly for 24 hours or so, it settles out. To the bottom of the tank.<

NO a fuel tank would have a sump to catch the water and allow it to be removed.

Built with no sump its not a fuel tank , just a box of fuel.

 

[FlyWright]

It seems to me that if you have spooge in your tank, it will settle on the bottom, where any water will also end up. If your pump will not actually be strong enough to stir up the bottom you will not be "polishing" any fuel.

Diesel comes from the refinery with some water in it, then it gets handled, tanked, trucked, delivered and then it sits for a while, all the while gathering more water. It then gets pumped into your boat where it will likely sit for a while too. If you keep the fuel moving, agitated if you will, the water will stay in suspension. When it sits quietly for 24 hours or so, it settles out. To the bottom of the tank. It is the water in the fuel that provides the medium for the growth of biological stuff.

If our Racors are spec'd properly, the turbine part is designed to spin out the water. If you don't have a filter turbine, some water goes through your engine. However, having stated that about Racors, I have never read anything that proves that the system actually works.

Anyway, with all due respect, unless you have provided a pump that makes the inside of your tank look like a washing machine with the lid up, you are fooling yourself if you think you are "polishing" your fuel. However, if the small pump you are using runs 24 hours a day, you might accomplish something as the fuel never gets to settle.

It's hard to tell who your post is directed toward, so as the OP, I'll presume it's me.

I have no 'spooge' in my tanks anymore. As indicated in the thread, the tanks were scrubbed and the fuel polished by a professional service after my fuel cap failure lead to the water contamination.

I have witnessed water separation in my Racor filters and also found some additional water in my stbd secondary yesterday during its first post-contamination replacement.

I never said I was polishing my fuel with the boost pumps. I stated I was transferring fuel and using the pump pressure to prime my filters. The boost pump can push fuel to the high pressure fuel pump, but not beyond as I have no "polishing" valves or lines in place. The only way for fuel to circulate back into the tanks is to run the engine and the unused fuel returns to the tank via the return line.

Try this experiment at home with some diesel fuel and water. Place 12 ounces or so of clean diesel fuel in a clear jar or bottle. Add a small amount water, maybe a teaspoon. You'll see the water settle to the bottom. Shake the bottle and see how long it takes for the water to settle out. I think you'll be surprised how quickly the water reappears on the bottom.

FF, Thanks for the link. My fuel tank doesn't have a sump or drain, but it's still called a fuel tank. Of course, I'd prefer if it had a sump, but it's too late now.

 

[Gorgewags]

Look at this stuff, it is very good for fuel fittings:

THREAD SEALANTS

Or this, which I really like because it is a "universal" thread sealer that one can will serve every project that comes along:

http://www.rectorseal.com/pds-pdf/dsno5.pdf

You don't want a hard setting material and most of us who use that sort of product stopped using Permatex years ago because it is messy and not all that great for your application.

Rectorseal is what I've used for many years where Teflon tape is not appropriate, and it's what I've seen the Propane companies use, and the Gasoline/Diesel guys, and the pro plumbers. I've never seen it harden to unusable in the can, and I've got a can I found in some old boxes under my deck that is at least 25 years old.

 

[FF]

Try this experiment at home with some diesel fuel and water. Place 12 ounces or so of clean diesel fuel in a clear jar or bottle. Add a small amount water, maybe a teaspoon. You'll see the water settle to the bottom. Shake the bottle and see how long it takes for the water to settle out. I think you'll be surprised how quickly the water reappears on the bottom.


While this is true , it is still best practice to SUCK fuel thru a filter or water coalesser , rather than pump thru an emulsion caused by the pump itself.