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Old 08-20-2013, 12:26 AM   #81
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I got to the boat today to tackle some overdue electrical projects. I needed to correct some ground connections so now my battery monitor is reading all loads and charges on the house battery. I also installed a new power port at the helm.

I took a break and hooked up my jump start battery to the #6 component in the photo above. When connected, it started running, sounding like a pump. RickB was right. I only let it run for a couple seconds since I wasn't planning to purge/vent the filters and didn't want to over-pressurize anything. Since I lack a transfer capability, this got me thinking that a fuel transfer modification might be feasible using these pumps.

I did find some vents on the end of each outlet port fitting on the Racor mount. They are not visible in the photos above and I meant to take new pics, but forgot to go back and do that. Maybe later.

Also, I got an estimate from the second fuel polisher that exceeded $1000, so I'll stick with Cruising Seas for the work. We'll get that done the day after Labor Day. (That's Sept 3 for you non-Yanks.)
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Old 08-20-2013, 12:45 AM   #82
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Gosh, Al, you're so handy. Without a doubt, sometime I'm going to "lean" on you for help.

Yes, I believe it would be worthwhile if you could transfer fuel between/among tanks as well as fuel your engines from whatever tank you wish.
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Old 08-20-2013, 06:49 AM   #83
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Clean fuel polished 24/7/365 does not mean a clean fuel tank.

Its the tank that sloughs off gunk to clog filters.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:33 AM   #84
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I woke up early this morning and read the thread. It was nice living vicariously through the whole ordeal and not doing my boat work.

Al, glad you worked it out and on a mooring as well. So tell me about the double moorings. Catalina has double moorings with a single ball. There is a wand you pick up that has a line attached to the bow mooring line. You pull that onto your bow cleat and there is a second line called the sand line. It goes to the rear mooring line. You walk that line down the side of your boat to the stern where you can pull up the stern line and cleat it off. It's very easy as long as you have the boat lined up with both mooring blocks below the boat.

As to fuel pumps, electric pumps push very well but don't suck well at all. Mechanical pumps suck very well and don't push that well. That's why the electric fuel pumps are located near your tank and the mechanical on your engine. In your car, electrics are internal to your tank.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:48 AM   #85
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I woke up early this morning and read the thread. It was nice living vicariously through the whole ordeal and not doing my boat work.

Al, glad you worked it out and on a mooring as well. So tell me about the double moorings. Catalina has double moorings with a single ball. There is a wand you pick up that has a line attached to the bow mooring line. You pull that onto your bow cleat and there is a second line called the sand line. It goes to the rear mooring line. You walk that line down the side of your boat to the stern where you can pull up the stern line and cleat it off. It's very easy as long as you have the boat lined up with both mooring blocks below the boat.

As to fuel pumps, electric pumps push very well but don't suck well at all. Mechanical pumps suck very well and don't push that well. That's why the electric fuel pumps are located near your tank and the mechanical on your engine. In your car, electrics are internal to your tank.
I think pushing and pulling is more a function of what kind of pump it is....the reason mechanical pumps are on engines is there is a source of power for the pump right there and none at the fuel tank pump so it's electric. Plus my electric fuel pump on my truck is about half way between my tank and engine.

Many trawler guys have gotten rid of their mechanical engine pumps and put an electric one on their fuel panel which is often closer to the engine than the tanks.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:57 AM   #86
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I replaced my mechanical pump on my truck and the GM Diesel forum administrator who is also a professor in mechanical engineering stated those facts. I didn't pull them out of my arse.
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Old 08-20-2013, 07:57 AM   #87
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I only let it run for a couple seconds since I wasn't planning to purge/vent the filters and didn't want to over-pressurize anything.
Not much to fear in that respect ... those pumps generally produce only 3 or 4 psig and will (as designed) stop pumping when the limit is reached. They only pump when there is low or no pressure on the outlet. They have a solenoid coil that bumps back and forth to move a small slug of fuel.

To save a post let me combine another response with this one:

A pump doesn't know or care if it is mechanically operated or electrically. The only difference is positive displacement or a velocity type ... if shutting off the outlet stalls the pump it is positive displacement, otherwise it is the other kind, such as centrifugal. A possitive displacement pump MAY lift better than a velocity type pump, not always and the limit of lift may even be less for a PD pump depending on the fluid. So ... the idea that one is better for suction than the other is bogus.
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:50 AM   #88
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Clean fuel polished 24/7/365 does not mean a clean fuel tank.

Its the tank that sloughs off gunk to clog filters.
Fred - You hit another nail on the head!

Only other reason for gunk in fuel that I know of is if pump station has gunk in its main tank and therein transfers its gunk into your tanks... been there, done that... had that happen once when I used the last fuel available at a small, old fuel dock... drained their tanks to the bottom. Since that mess occurred, I try to never go to anything but well used and well serviced fuel docks.

Although many think I'm nuts (that's OK, wife often does too - lol)... before using Soltron I often had dirty gas and some gunk in my filters. Since using Soltron I've had none for years.

From my experiences, Soltron clearly seems to provide cheap insurance for clean tanks and stabilized fuel. If I ever need to change tanks (God forbid) Iíll be interested to learn exactly how clean or dirty my currently 36 yr 100 gal aluminum tanks are... so far so good!
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Old 08-20-2013, 09:00 AM   #89
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I replaced my mechanical pump on my truck and the GM Diesel forum administrator who is also a professor in mechanical engineering stated those facts. I didn't pull them out of my arse.
Neither did I.....

Thanks Rick...
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Old 08-20-2013, 04:15 PM   #90
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Clean fuel polished 24/7/365 does not mean a clean fuel tank.

Its the tank that sloughs off gunk to clog filters.
In addition to having the fuel polished, I am having 8 inch access plates installed and the tanks will be scrubbed. The replacement caps arrived today.

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Old 08-20-2013, 04:46 PM   #91
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In addition to having the fuel polished, I am having 8 inch access plates installed and the tanks will be scrubbed. The replacement caps arrived today.

Al - OHHHH... So Pretty!! You're doing a bang up good job! Best luck for many years forward that he angle of "clean fuel flow" flaps her wings and wiggles her tail - - > in your favor!
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Old 08-20-2013, 05:33 PM   #92
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Thanks, Art!
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:50 AM   #93
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Only other reason for gunk in fuel that I know of is if pump station has gunk in its main tank and therein transfers its gunk into your tanks... been there, done that

Actually fuel is a high volume commodity and some water is expected to be in the fuel.

Any water from any source will feed the bugs that live in the water and eat the diesel.

The only solution to the problem is a built in sump to collect the water at the low point and a program to remove it .
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Old 08-28-2013, 07:33 PM   #94
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Catalina has double moorings with a single ball. There is a wand you pick up that has a line attached to the bow mooring line. You pull that onto your bow cleat and there is a second line called the sand line. It goes to the rear mooring line. You walk that line down the side of your boat to the stern where you can pull up the stern line and cleat it off. It's very easy as long as you have the boat lined up with both mooring blocks below the boat.
Those moorings are easy as long as the wind is down the line more or less, if the wind is not in your favor it is a good thing the harbor patrol is so helpful
BTW, i just got back today from 7 days at The Isthmus and 2 days in Avalon.


Quote:
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Only other reason for gunk in fuel that I know of is if pump station has gunk in its main tank and therein transfers its gunk into your tanks... been there, done that

Actually fuel is a high volume commodity and some water is expected to be in the fuel.

Any water from any source will feed the bugs that live in the water and eat the diesel.

The only solution to the problem is a built in sump to collect the water at the low point and a program to remove it .
question:
I heard some fuel docks add additives and some dont?
If they dont add any additives, should we consider to use an additive?
We live in a relatively mild climate and the fuel is typically used within a few months of fueling.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:16 AM   #95
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Oil additives are very Iffy , but fuel is a great use for specific products that may solve a specific problem.

Most fuel is burned fairly rapidly , in some boats it sits for years.

So some type of biocide might be in order.

Although the first line defence is a Baja Filter to keep water and dirt out of the tank.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:41 AM   #96
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On Bay Pelican we have gone against conventional wisdom and draw our fuel directly from the bottom of the tank with side outlets just above the tank bottom. We however use a fuel polishing system extensively on any tank before we use the tank, running the polishing system long enough to polish the tank 4 to 6 times.

So far no problems, although we do collect water in the fuel polisher.

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Old 08-29-2013, 09:35 AM   #97
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I recently re-piped my fuel systems. I designed the system myself. Starboard tank to starboard engine, port to port. My generator is combined with the port engine. I have three way valves that let me pull from the drain or from a top entry dip tube. I have racors and pull fuel through them and another three way valve that selects engine or polishing pump. I also have a valved transfer line. All this get me the ability to polish from the tank bottom and motor from the dip tube. Each polishing pump is on a 12 hour timer. After polishing I switch to dip tube. If I need to I can use the polish pumps to transfer from side to side. I have pressure gauges on the racors and change them after polishing or whenever. The polish pumps resolve all my priming concerns. I have had this arrangement for more than a year and a couple of long cruises and couldn't be happier.
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:11 PM   #98
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That sounds like a great set-up, obthomas. It's something I'll need to consider in the future. Adding a few valves and lines might be all I need to make it happen. I like the idea of having the pumps on a timer switch.
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Old 08-30-2013, 07:15 AM   #99
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However one handles cleaning the fuel , be sure to create a PDL, pass down log, so the next owener can understand the installation.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:47 AM   #100
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Drawings are better.
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