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Old 01-19-2013, 02:07 PM   #41
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HFRR is not a standard. HFRR means High Frequency Reciprocating Rig and is the machine used to test the lubricating quality of fuel oil.

"HFRR and SLBOCLE are two methods for evaluating diesel fuel Lubricity. HFRR is capable of rubbing a steel ball loaded with 200 g mass against a stationary steel disk completely submerged in a test fuel at 60 C. The apparatus uses a 1-mm stroke length at a frequency of 50 Hz for 75 min. After 75 minutes of test time, the ball is removed from the vibrator arm and cleaned. The dimension of the major and minor axes of the wear scar are measured under a microscope and recorded as HFRR wear scar diameter. Higher the lubricity smaller the wear scar diameter."

The fuel sold in the US meets or exceeds ASTM D975 specifications which, since 2004, include the lubricity standard ASTM D6079.

European standards (described in the link below) call for a higher lubricity standard than the US. That doesn't mean our fuel will wear out your engine, it is the fuel all new engines are designed to use and provides adequate lubrication for older engines.


http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics...tion_paper.pdf

Note that nearly every quote and anecdotal reference includes the word "feel" when suggesting that a lubricity additive should be used. The speaker "feels" that better life may be obtained, they "feel" that it is too risky not to purchase a bottle of magic sauce to protect their 200 hour a year engine from fuel system wear.

Good info RickB...... its been a while since I read that memo , The HFRR 460 is not the fuel standard, it is one of the tests used so that ASTM can make the standard, Its called scratch testing, the SLBOCLE the other method is called the scuff test, All the reports I see use the HFRR 460/ scratch method...and I don't know why?... But I will ask, Very good point on the use of a fuel lubricity additive for the first fill on new Diesels for the Break in of the fuel system if the engine has not been test run and broken in before shipment, some OEMs do it and some don't, You will know if you have to run special lube oil in the crank case for a period of time than a fuel additive is also recommended and is the responsibility of the end user to comply with the brake in procedure. It should be provided in the warranty paper work with a new engine, Very often this is the responsibility of the engine installer. It has been a few years scince I have sold new Diesels and fuel injection equipment so I am not up to date on who's doing what now.
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:08 PM   #42
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I flew airplanes on an almost daily basis in Hawaii for years before moving here. The fuel tanks were filled to the tabs on every plane at the end of every day. For those who don't know filling a tank to the tabs is not filling it all the way up. And EVERY morning on EVERY plane there was ALWAYS a bit of water in the bottom of the sample cup when the tanks were checked during the walkaround. Obviously the very humid climate with fairly cool nights was responsible.

So while tank condensation can vary or not even exist in specific situations, don't for a moment think that the concept in general does not exist. We have never gotten any visible water in our fuel tanks on the GB regardless of how much fuel is in them. I don't know why, but I know not to use this example as "proof" that tank condensation does not occur.
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:25 PM   #43
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I flew airplanes on an almost daily basis in Hawaii for years before moving here. The fuel tanks were filled to the tabs on every plane at the end of every day. For those who don't know filling a tank to the tabs is not filling it all the way up. And EVERY morning on EVERY plane there was ALWAYS a bit of water in the bottom of the sample cup when the tanks were checked during the walkaround. Obviously the very humid climate with fairly cool nights was responsible.

So while tank condensation can vary or not even exist in specific situations, don't for a moment think that the concept in general does not exist. We have never gotten any visible water in our fuel tanks on the GB regardless of how much fuel is in them. I don't know why, but I know not to use this example as "proof" that tank condensation does not occur.
What kind of tanks were they? And if tight to the aircraft skin no matter what they were I can see it possible... but I flew a lot of aircraft too and rarely was there much if any sampled out each day...guess it might depend on quite a few things....
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:36 PM   #44
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Where these single engined or twin engined airplanes?
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:36 PM   #45
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The issue of adding a fuel lubricity product to your fuel tank is some what dependent on where you live, I can only talk about Atlantic east coast cause that's the bulk of the fuels we sample and test, The EMA < eng mans assoc > have a lubricity standard called HFRR, The min # is 460 HFRR, The good old high sulfur pre 2005 fuels were Diesel #2 350/390 HFRR Those days are gone, The low sulfur we have seen after 2005 has been 390/500 HFRR and now for Ultra low sulfur 600/800 HFRR , Note... the higher the # the lower the lubricity, The good news is we have not seen any Ultra low diesel for marine fuels yet on the east coast & most of the fuels tested have been under 460 HFRR. There are some engines that will require some form additive in the future when the marine industry must comply, It seems to me that most people are just selling extra protection that may not be needed, Its a easy sell We recommend for long term storage tanks should be empty and cleaned before use, Good topic fellas
BTW everyone... This the THE Craig Schreck than did my tank cleaning last summer. He runs EMD Fuels and really knows what he is talking about when it comes to fuels. Welcome aboard Craig!

Here is the report I did about your work, Craig:

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...port-6551.html

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Old 01-19-2013, 07:00 PM   #46
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Thanks for the link Tom , I am glad that everything is working fine, It was a pleasure working with you and Bess last summer, As for the part where I stay up @ the truck & watch the pressures well... that's not completely true... Jed does talk a lot and after a while I just need the space I suppose that's a small price cause Jed does get the Lions share of the nasty work. last Friday Jed had to do a confined space entry for the Feds around 30 ft into a long rectangular tank, He was talking thru his respirator non stop for 30 mins At least I know he hasn't passed out . I stumbled on this site last night while searching for a fuel additive and started reading some posts, This seems like fun.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:27 PM   #47
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Greetings,
Welcome aboard Mr. Craig. Nice to have another professional here. "seems like fun?" Hahahaha....What?

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Old 01-19-2013, 09:06 PM   #48
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What kind of tanks were they?
Metal tanks mounted in the wings but not necessarily tight to the skin. We get a bit of water from the Beaver tanks here, too, and they are mounted in the belly of the fuselage. But water was much more prevelant in the planes in Hawaii.

Singles and twins.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:42 PM   #49
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Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

For what it's worth since lubricity came up.
I think I got this thread from this forum some while back.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:49 PM   #50
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celectric

The interesting part of this and other over the road additive studies is that the OEMs do not require additives to keep warranties active. Even for the extended warranties.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:38 AM   #51
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Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

For what it's worth since lubricity came up.
I think I got this thread from this forum some while back.
That's a great link, thank you. I've been using Opti-Lube for a few years and couldn't tell you whether it has done anything, but the study is interesting because it shows some larger name brands actually making lubricity worse. Caveat Emptor, I guess.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:51 AM   #52
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I use Stanadyne power performance, it's made by a company that manufactures fuel injection systems. I figure if anyone knows what's good for pumps & injectors it would be someone like that. If you can be sure of the quality of the fuel your buying a additive wouldn't be need. I figure it's kinda like insurance.
http://stanadyne.com/view.php?id=74
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:19 AM   #53
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I figure it's kinda like insurance.
Performance Formula - Stanadyne
Now there is an unbiased article!
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:59 AM   #54
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Greetings,
IT'S MAGIC!!!!
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Old 01-28-2013, 11:17 AM   #55
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Now there is an unbiased article!
One of the data points from that particular study I thought intriguing is that Val-Tech makes a product, and presumably sells their fuel with that product, that increases wear.

Such a deal.
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:00 PM   #56
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One of the data points from that particular study I thought intriguing is that Val-Tech makes a product, and presumably sells their fuel with that product, that increases wear.

Such a deal.
Made 5 1/2 years ago, that is. Would be interested in today's product as it has become a very popular additive at many marinas; commercial and government boats go out of their way to buy it at our marina. My oil samples have improved a litle since we started using it a couple years ago, have no idea what influence if any at all the additive has with that.

By the way, Valvetech is an additive that the fuel dock adds to everyday off road diesel fuel bought from a distributor.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:35 PM   #57
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This is a little off topic but very important... Almost all fuel additives are highly toxic Extreme care and a basic working knowledge of the chemicals and the reactions from the mixing of chemicals should be known to the end user,< not so easy to figure out> protective gloves and good ventilation are mandatory even @ simple fuel filter changes, One should read or have a copy of the MSDA sheets for the fuel products purchased, You can down load them off the net for free, For boats with a open bilge system < non water tight compartments > Fuel in the bilge from engine room leaks flowing into sleeping areas is potentially hazardous to your health and should be avoided, Rent a room and vent the boat, And last thought... tell your fuel maintenance guy what chemicals you have added or if you bought fuel like Valv Tect so he wont get sick also
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:17 PM   #58
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Good points Craig, the public has no idea what chemicals are in their tanks only to go to the local Worst Marine and take home a bottle of snake oil that usually reacts adversely in the end.
We cleaned a 4K gallon ULSD tank today that has had one of the national brand being supplied and the tank being only four years old. The owner of the station was amazed of the contaminants.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:10 AM   #59
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Oh well, two more that agree.......
EVERYONE that I know or have read about that has ACTUALLY CHECKED for water in partially full tanks (or even empty) has never found but a very small amount....
You can add another then. I also am aware of the so-called traditional wisdom, (interestingly even perpetuated by people who you would think would know, like PMM's Steve D'Antonio), but have never experienced it in my tanks, even though I drain the bottom of the separator in the primary filter just to check, especially after a new fill in case I got bad diesel. I have never drained more than a thimble-full of water, and I never have my tanks more than half full, winter or summer. With the levels of humidity we can get here in Queensland, I would expect it to happen if it was a significant issue, especially as we can have wide temperature excursions between night and day..
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:39 AM   #60
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You can add another then. I also am aware of the so-called traditional wisdom, (interestingly even perpetuated by people who you would think would know, like PMM's Steve D'Antonio), but have never experienced it in my tanks, even though I drain the bottom of the separator in the primary filter just to check, especially after a new fill in case I got bad diesel. I have never drained more than a thimble-full of water, and I never have my tanks more than half full, winter or summer. With the levels of humidity we can get here in Queensland, I would expect it to happen if it was a significant issue, especially as we can have wide temperature excursions between night and day..
Thannks...it won't help some understand...but for some it may mean the difference some day of making smarter choices.
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