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Old 01-18-2013, 06:00 PM   #21
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FWIW:

Been reported that 'bugs' build up a resistance to bio-cides just like when one takes too much antibiotics.

Most fuel additives have a shelf life once opened, sometimes one year.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:03 PM   #22
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There two types of needs here.

NEED ONE
Assuming you have clean tanks and buy good fuel (that already has been tested to insure specified additives included) you have NO need for additives

NEED TWO
The additive sellers have GREAT need for you to buy their product or they go out of business. This TF thread is great advertising for them.

There are lots of good arms length studies and articles on this subject. One for sure I remember from PMM last year is if you are buying Valvetech diesel, you have all the additives you will ever need - whether added by the refiner, as they all do, or additionally juiced up by Valvetech.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:43 PM   #23
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Why not just follow the engine manufacturer's rec? Detroit Diesel does not see the need for additives for their 2 stroke engines so will not explicitly endorse their use. They only recommend Biobor if the boat is going to be laid up for a long period of time. I have been using Valvetech for a few years now only because that is what the two fuel docks, including our home slip use. Really haven't noticed any difference in how long the filters can go, smoke, running, etc. The docks are high turnover, which I always look for when cruising, I think that makes the biggest difference. One reason I'd use a truck service when I could.
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:04 PM   #24
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There two types of needs here.

NEED ONE
Assuming you have clean tanks and buy good fuel (that already has been tested to insure specified additives included) you have NO need for additives.
I would like to give that some credibility if it weren't for the fact that EVERY professional diesel shop person and person in the marine diesel manufactuing industry that I've talked about this over the last 14 years has advised us differently for our engines.

Even a couple of people in the fuel industry--- one the proprietor of the fuel dock in our marina--- have told us that we should be using a lubricity additive in our engines given today's diesel fuel. The fuel dock owner said the fuel he gets does not have the optimum lubricity for older engines like ours. He didn't try to sell us the additive his fuel supplier offers because he said he feels it's not as good as some of the others.

Now I've not run into any engine folks who have said, "This FL120 injection pump would not have worn out so fast and needed a rebuild so soon if the owner had used a lubricity additive."

But there is just too much credible information for the need to improve the lubricity of today's diesel fuel in the case of the jerk-injection pumps on our engines to ignore it.

In the case of more modern engines or engines with a different type of injection system, I have no idea how critical fuel lubricity is to them and if today's fuel satisfies that requirement.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:55 PM   #25
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The issue of adding a fuel lubricity product to your fuel tank is some what dependent on where you live, I can only talk about Atlantic east coast cause that's the bulk of the fuels we sample and test, The EMA < eng mans assoc > have a lubricity standard called HFRR, The min # is 460 HFRR, The good old high sulfur pre 2005 fuels were Diesel #2 350/390 HFRR Those days are gone, The low sulfur we have seen after 2005 has been 390/500 HFRR and now for Ultra low sulfur 600/800 HFRR , Note... the higher the # the lower the lubricity, The good news is we have not seen any Ultra low diesel for marine fuels yet on the east coast & most of the fuels tested have been under 460 HFRR. There are some engines that will require some form additive in the future when the marine industry must comply, It seems to me that most people are just selling extra protection that may not be needed, Its a easy sell We recommend for long term storage tanks should be empty and cleaned before use, Good topic fellas
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:06 AM   #26
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My brother, a motor pool sarge in the US Army, said the only reason one would use a fuel additive is if the engine sits dormant for awhile. The additives help keep the the lines clear and the moving parts lubed. If you run the boat once a week or every other week, then an additive wouldn't be that necessary. Of course, he was talking as a landlubber, and not a sailor. But I sort of agree with that logic.
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Old 01-19-2013, 04:38 AM   #27
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I use a biocide to treat my fuel (mainly Tectron)and have done all along. I rotate another brand in every 3rd or 4 th fill. ( I allways fill my tanks especially in our sub tropical climate and usually I am going to burn it)
Most commercial ships that I have been on have treated their fuel (even heavy FO) with a biocide as bugs were rampant here in Aus for many years. You don't find this as common any more unless there has been a recent contamination with salt water or other contaminant.
About 6/7 years ago the sulphur content of our MDO and ADO was lowered to the ulltr low levels. At this time I had the Fiat 8210 in the boat and had to get the fuel pump rebuilt due to all the seals and O rings leaking.

PS as I typed this an add for Fueltreat Biocide (as recommended by BP)
appeared at the top of the screen.

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Old 01-19-2013, 06:53 AM   #28
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The EMA < eng mans assoc > have a lubricity standard called HFRR, The min # is 460 HFRR,
HFRR is not a standard. HFRR means High Frequency Reciprocating Rig and is the machine used to test the lubricating quality of fuel oil.

"HFRR and SLBOCLE are two methods for evaluating diesel fuel Lubricity. HFRR is capable of rubbing a steel ball loaded with 200 g mass against a stationary steel disk completely submerged in a test fuel at 60 C. The apparatus uses a 1-mm stroke length at a frequency of 50 Hz for 75 min. After 75 minutes of test time, the ball is removed from the vibrator arm and cleaned. The dimension of the major and minor axes of the wear scar are measured under a microscope and recorded as HFRR wear scar diameter. Higher the lubricity smaller the wear scar diameter."

The fuel sold in the US meets or exceeds ASTM D975 specifications which, since 2004, include the lubricity standard ASTM D6079.

European standards (described in the link below) call for a higher lubricity standard than the US. That doesn't mean our fuel will wear out your engine, it is the fuel all new engines are designed to use and provides adequate lubrication for older engines.


http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics...tion_paper.pdf

Note that nearly every quote and anecdotal reference includes the word "feel" when suggesting that a lubricity additive should be used. The speaker "feels" that better life may be obtained, they "feel" that it is too risky not to purchase a bottle of magic sauce to protect their 200 hour a year engine from fuel system wear.
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Old 01-19-2013, 07:00 AM   #29
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The simplest source of a lubricity additive is any brand of outboard oil made for a 2 stroke outboard.

One gal oil to 100 fuel might pay for itself over the years.

With a 60 year old engine I'm sure it was built for far different fuel oil specks.

However with DD injectors only about $40 ea. rebuilt , weather the savings is real in dollars is questionable.

And remember WATER is part of all fuel purchased , read the specs.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:29 AM   #30
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I do believe there is a need for a way to control the bugs that grow in the water at the bottom of the tank. The water is due to condensation that occurs more frequently in warm climates when the difference between the daytime and night time tank temperatures are greatest. When the boat is used this temp differential can be as much as 70 degrees.
There has been some lively dicussions on various forums about the wisdom of using Valvetech. There will never be consenses on whether it's better than a competing brand but the problem I see when it's mixed in the fuel you buy from the marina, is the consistency of the mix is left entirely up to the marina, ie they mix it not the distributor. So the yard manager tells the summer help teenager who was out drinking with his buddies last night to go mix the valvetech and you can see where the problem lies.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:42 AM   #31
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Greetings,
"So the yard manager tells the summer help teenager who was out drinking with his buddies last night to go mix the valvetech and you can see where the problem lies."
EXACTLY!!!!! Bourbon or Rum?
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:46 AM   #32
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The myth about partially empty tanks is pretty well established...I just left a tank COMPLTELY empty for 2 years...no water...the other was a 1/4 full....no water..
It's not a "myth". Testing on one or two tanks is not scientific proof of anything.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:11 AM   #33
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It's not a "myth". Testing on one or two tanks is not scientific proof of anything.
I gave other examples and if you really read up on the subject you would see the consensus...and don't quote the boating mag experts...they are the one proliferating the myth for the advertisers....
Quote fron Phil Fill..."For 15+ year the fullest the 3 tanks have been is maybe full. The middle tank I open and repair was empty for 5+ years with no water/moisture. So I think having the tanks full is a bunch of punk.

My truck often has dew on the OUTSIDE...never have seen it on the inside unless I was breathing in there all night. I wonder if the same happens to tanks?????

Science....no...sorry...I know so many here think qualifications and past employment are a joke so I guess this whole forum is just about entertainment...and boy am I entertained sometimes...
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:40 AM   #34
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.................and boy am I entertained sometimes...
As am I.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:50 AM   #35
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Greetings,
+3
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:58 AM   #36
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Water is my biggest concern, so I was thinking of using a external engine heater to evaporate the water at the bottom of the tank? I ran the webosto hot water hoses uunder the tank which keeps them warm. Also try to keep the engine room between 60 and 70 degrees. I think the diesel has enough additives out of the pump. However for peace of mind additives should be added.

I do agree the new ultra low sullen diesel will damage older hoses and seals. Had the fuel pump seal fail so diesel was pump into the oil pan, which thinned the oil and raised the level which I noticed before any damage done. However it did clean flushed the engine out. The real concern is if the oil level is to high the engine could run away. So when checking the
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:01 PM   #37
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My tanks for the last 7 years in SE Alaska have accumulated only several small drops of water. My UL aircraft tank never had condensed water in them so I'm strongly inclined to agree w psneeld. It's just a myth. However if one had something warm like a generator running for long periods right next to an aluminum FT they may get some condensation specific to their operating conditions but it's been my experience that it's just something that people talk about to appear knowledgeable. Mechanics and people you talk to alude to all kinds of myths.

That said I use Biobore and Stabil per the amounts on the bottle (roughly).
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:42 PM   #38
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I have checked my new(ish) tanks every year for the last 18 years and rarely find any water. When I do it is only a drop or two. I've stopped worrying about it.

When the new tanks were put in I checked the Taiwanese deck fills and found they did not have any O rings installed. I think this was the source of the water that destroyed the original 15 year old plain steel tanks.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:40 PM   #39
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Oh well, two more that agree.......

EVERYONE that I know or have read about that has ACTUALLY CHECKED for water in partially full tanks (or even empty) has never found but a very small amount....

Like I said...the dew usually forms on the outside of things...not on the inside.

I think where the possibility comes from is where the tank is actually against the outer hull or part of it...I could see the possibility...but I haven't had anyone actually say it happens to the degree it bother's their fuel.
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Old 01-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #40
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Greetings,
My tanks are all amidships in the keel. Other than the section under the deck in the ER which is indirectly exposed to elevated ER temperatures during and immediately after engine operation I would think that there are no radical temperature changes over time. As a result I would expect less "breathing" than those tanks, as mentioned by Mr. psneeld which may be integral with or immediately adjacent to the hull above the WL.
Over 6 years of operation I have never observed any water accumulation in the Racor bowls. I have, in the past added MMO to the fuel occasionally. I quizzed American Diesel about this and was told they don't necessarily recommend it or ANY (I think) additives were needed but if I felt it was necessary, it would do no harm.
I do use Bio-Bor when in tropical waters.
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