Ford Lehman Runaway

[patzfan4eva]

Scaring event today, I finished the installation of two new fuel tanks, new filters, and new line.* Bleed fuel system to remove air and started engine normally.* 10 seconds after starting motor ran-away! Pinned tach and was running on light water level as I was going to top off after thermostat opened. Ran away*for about 3 - 4 minutes and got very hot.* Turned newly painted exhaust manifold dark red with a few darker spots at the leading edge.* Don't think it got above 250 degrees, but water level was low so I'm not sure.*

How hot can the engine get before real damage occurs and for how long?

Pretty sure run away was caused by new oil*under valve cover from oil*change and new breather hose to air filter caused vacum*which drew oil into intake.

Any*expierence or advice*is greatly appreciated.

 

[FF]

How hot can the engine get before real damage occurs and for how long?


Each engine is different and how steam pockets that form vary.

Just X your fingers and go for a ride.

 

[RickB]

If it was running on lube oil as you described then the excess heat was probably limited to the exhaust valves and manifold since lube oil burns slower and would exhaust while still burning. You may have stretched the valves which will cause problems for sure. The overspeed is a biggy and could have caused damage to rods and crank that might not show up for a few more hours.

Was the engine wound up like a turbine? How fast do you think it was running and how did you stop it? Did it stop by itself when it ran out of excess oil? Did it wind down slowly or shudder to a stop? What did it sound like as it stopped? Any funny noises?

If you can get it started, do like FF suggested, go for a ride. Run it at the dock for a while first just to make sure it doesn't grenade right away. I suspect you will be low on power at the very least. I would have very little confidence in that engine until it was inspected in a manner that might cost more than it is worth.

 

[patzfan4eva]

Thanks guys,

Rick to answer your question, I disconnect the breather tube to the basket and shut the fuel valve so the motor ran out of "gas" it slowly ran out and don't think it got aobe 3300 rpm. as it was cooling down only one strange sound about 4 minutes later which sounded like a ball peen hammer being tapped against the engine block. Was thinking a head bolt or connecting rod bolt popped?

David

 

[sunchaser]

I've heard of several runaways where sucking lube oil from the crankcase was the culprit. As is the case with many OM breather systems, a vacuum break (after market puke bottle concept works too) is used. What year and how many hours on your engine?

 

[RickB]

You may have dodged a bullet if it didn't run long and didn't wind up too far.

Before starting it, turn the engine over by hand so you can listen and feel for anything unusual. Check the oil for metal, and check to make sure it holds coolant.

You can put a length of*clear plastic tube into a cooling system pressure test cap and run the open end up to the flybridge and put about*.4 psi of pressure per foot on the system that way and have a good indication if there is an internal coolant leak.

 

[patzfan4eva]

I believe its 30 years old as its the original engine, has only 1200 hrs and I think the oil on top of the head from the oil change was the cause of the run away

 

[patzfan4eva]

Alot of people are looking at this thread but no one is adding. Love to hear alot of ideas, opinions and perhaps examples from other members - PLZ!

 

[jleonard]

patzfan4eva wrote:
Alot of people are looking at this thread but no one is adding. Love to hear alot of ideas, opinions and perhaps examples from other members - PLZ!

*My suggestion is to call American Diesel Corp and talk with Bob Smith the Ford-Lehman "guru" about this. I'm sure he has run into this before.

My only "runaway" was with my old VW diesel Rabbit pickup. It would suck the crancase vent into the intake manifold...the manifold would hold oil in the crevices, then once in a while, always while going uphill with my foot to the floor (it was there often with that vehicle) it would suck in the oil and runaway....wouldn't hurt anything though as it would last only 20 to 30 seconds and then all the oil would be burned up. It was under load so the rpm stayed in check.

So you are theorizing that the oil got sucked into the enigne via the valve stem seals?

*

 

[RickB]

patzfan4eva wrote:Alot of people are looking at this thread but no one is adding.

Are you looking to purchase an indulgence ... go forth*skipper, runaway no more and everything is alright sort of a response?

If your engine "ran away" and pegged the tach for several minutes at some unknown rpm then there is only one way to determine if the bearings are wiped, the valves are stretched, the*crank is cracked, or a rod or piston is about to fail and that is take the engine apart to visually inspect it and do a dye penetrant or mag particle inspection.

Even the Pope can't help you out of this one.

 

[bobofthenorth]

I'm looking but not responding because I have nothing to add.* My father always told me if I had nothing to say then it was best to say nothing.* However I would like to hear what Brian/Bob Smith have to say about this.* Runaways are a known problem on 2-strokes but this is the first 4-stroke runaway I have heard of.* I'd like to know whether it is something I should be worried about.

If you want my opinion then I'd say you likely spun a bearing, based on the statement that when the engine stopped it sounded like a ball peen hammer was hitting something inside.* I hope that isn't the situation.

*


-- Edited by bobofthenorth on Monday 12th of September 2011 02:58:41 PM

 

[patzfan4eva]

Whateva! THe truth shall set me free!! I spoke with Bob at AD and sure enough i was given the holy pass on the engine issue. Fuel Pump Baffle was the likely cause. I have electric fuel pump that feeds the engine system which probably pushed the fuel into the crank case and thinned the oil to the point it passed the rings and entered the cylinder. It created excessive fuel in the combustion chamber thus creating a run away.

Will replace mechanical pump (OLD) and remove electric fuel pump, change oil - should fix issue!

*

AND YES Rick!! I was looking for someone to hold my hand and tell me it would be alright!! Where were you on that one? lol

 

[RickB]

patzfan4eva wrote:AND YES Rick!! I was looking for someone to hold my hand and tell me it would be alright!! Where were you on that one? lol

*I must have been checking my oil level or something.*

Besides, I am not likely to ever suggest to someone that their engine is just peachy swell after experiencing a runaway event.

Besides, the oil level thing sounds fishy, surely you checked it before starting and after adding oil? Did you check it after it quit?

If it was running on*a crankcase full of fuel diluted oil then it is unlikely that simply shutting off the fuel supply would stop it since the governor had long since reduced the fuel delivery to virtually nil in its attempt to slow down the engine.

That is why very few are willing to bless your engine. I am surprised BS takes such a casual approach but then again he sells engine parts so doesn't havwe much too lose.

 

[Phil Fill]

If the fuel pump seal fail it will pump diesel directly into the oil pan.* We had the 671 fuel pump seal fail which pump diesel into the oil pan.*the new low sulfur diesel can damage older seals.* *Luckly I notice the oil level abov the full mark.*** If the oil level is above the full mark. So when checking the oil level check if its to low or to HIGH.***


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Monday 12th of September 2011 03:46:55 PM

 

[capt jerry]

the noise might have been a fuel knock???????

 

[FF]

RICK is right , about the damage that might happen to a real industrial duty engine.

However most Ford Econ power and Perkins have light truck backgrounds.

30-40 years ago automatic trannys were not common in light trucks,

SO the engine had to be able to accept modest over speeds from a driver going down hill in the wrong gear.

Stuff happens , and scraping an engine that was merely abused would not be acceptable.

 

[patzfan4eva]

Unfortunate result is a fried exhaust manifold! Need to replace, probably will replace head gasket as well. Need to talk to Bob again and follow his suggestion.


-- Edited by patzfan4eva on Tuesday 13th of September 2011 10:55:57 PM

 

[RickB]

patzfan4eva wrote:Unfortunate result is a fried exhaust manifold!

*Ugh.* Now a bit more to think about ... if that large hunk of water cooled iron got hot enough to fry, what do you think happened to those skinny little lightweight uncooled exhaust valves that were the first items exposed to the fire?

 

[sunchaser]

As smart as the Smiths may be from long distance, insure you have some capable hands and eyes on things as they come apart. On an overheat and runaway, I'd be suspicious of everything including block, pistons and crank shaft.

Now may be the time to price out a rebuild vs a new engine.* There was a long thread earlier this year (Larry's Krogen?) on rebuilding/replacing a Lehman.

 

[Larry M]

David:* Here' the link to the thread that Tom refers to about rebuilding/replacing a Ford Lehman.* You can a get a good rebuild for ~10K.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/t39302878/replacing-a-ford-lehman-sp135/

 

[bobofthenorth]

Just to emphasize what Rick said, you had one runaway - don't let yourself get drawn into a financial runaway.* This might be a bit more than you had in mind but its just an asking price:

http://boatdiesel.com/Forums/index.cfm?CFApp=1000&Thread_ID=36281

*

*

 

[patzfan4eva]

Spoke with Bob today and he's sending me the top end gasket kit, the manifold gasket kit and agrred with my opinion to pull the head and have it examined before any further work. If the valves look fine and the head is still flat, he thinks I'm probably out of the woods. Will cross my fingers and hope, but will still be looking for cummins 6bt on the side!

 

[patzfan4eva]

Well.... number 2 cylinder is ugly and will need repair. Will have mechanic review on Monday or Tuesday. If its a major cost repair, I debating replacing my engine and wanted to get some opinions on what I should use. I've read and been told to use 4bt or 6bt Cummins and the John Deere 4045T.

Any thoughts..??

 

[Nomad Willy]

You can also get a new engine for about that. Since most on this forum underload most of the time smaller engines would be a real blessing. The 75hp Beta/Kubota comes to mind and Isuzu and Mitsubishi also have excellent new engines that are naturally aspirated. Why rebuild an old British built tractor engine???

Now I see that aluminum coated cylinder. Much of the aluminum that came off that piston is almost certainly throughout the engine now. At least everywhere lube oil goes. As someone else alluded to consider the fact that Bob Smith and the mechanics are heavily biased to action on your part that will help them make them a living. The above would be highly inclined to sell you parts and/or services that MAY get you out of the woods only to find out you/they didn't go far enough and then you could buy MORE parts and services that will Probably get you where you need to be*** .....but not for sure. And it's not unlikely at all you'd be in deeper than the cost of new engines. I'd recommend finding someone like yourself that has one Lehman in fair condition to sell cheap or buy new engines. The old engine could be your parts store if you could find a fairly good replacement. There must be many used old Lehmans out there. If you buy new think of how much of the new engine cost you'll get back (when you sell(and that's almost always sooner than we think)) and you'll have the joy of running w new engines. And that is very nice indeed.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Sunday 18th of September 2011 01:59:58 PM

 

[sunchaser]

I'm not sure of the $$ differential, but a 4 vs 6 cyl* is not a lot of $$. If you change out engines, you have*the opportunity to paint the ER.*A 210 Cummins is my vote, maybe factory reman would save you $$. You are close to Seaboard Marine, you may want to drive up and talk with them about choices and install.


-- Edited by sunchaser on Sunday 18th of September 2011 03:46:18 PM

 

[RickB]

patzfan4eva wrote:AND YES Rick!! I was looking for someone to hold my hand and tell me it would be alright!! Where were you on that one? lol

*It looks like you have your answer.

Believe me, it does not give me any pleasure to have my suspicions confirmed. I am sorry for the expense and loss of use of your boat for who knows how long but I am glad you didn't simply accept the advice of someone whose primary interest is in selling you parts.

 

[FF]

Any thoughts..??


We know what the old engine was ,

but would need your best log numbers of speed vs fuel burn as well as RPM vs speed.

Second question is the boat performance OK with you?

Prop size pitch blade count?

Is there room perhaps for a larger diameter prop?

What would you enjoy the most?

Low fuel burn, low installed cost , low cost parts, sound level, vibration level?

All will be part of the engine choice.

First is pricing the cost of a completer out of boat rebuild for your engine vs a "drop in" new replacement.

First question for the rebuilder is how many of these have you done in your lifetime?


-- Edited by FF on Monday 19th of September 2011 04:07:40 AM

 

[jleonard]

You are in a tough situation for sure.

If it were me I would go with a Cummins reman 6BT 210. These are factory rebuilt engines and probably the best deal out there. You won't like the vibration a 4BT*will give at lower*rpm. *

Rebuilds can be a crap shoot at times. I have known people who get theirs rebuilt by places with excellent reputations, and they make mistakes. Like FF said you need someone with experience in THAT enigne*for sure. That's a starting point.

Perhaps Ralph Yost will chime in here as he just went thru this ealier this season. He bought a Bob Smith rebuild.

 

[Tom.B]

Hit the boat shows this season. There will be lots of options.

 

[Egregious]

Was the root cause of this ever determined?* Was it a bad fuel pump seal?

I'm hoping to learn from your misfortune...* How could this issue have been prevented?I had a bad oil/tranny heat exchanger cost me a completely rebuilt tranny that could have* been prevented by simply checking the transmission fluid level and I would have seen it that it was milky.

If I understand correctly, a high lube oil level might indicate fuel oil in the lube oil which could in turn cause the runaway.