Ford 2704e Locked Up

[KiwiExplorer]

Hi Guys

My old ford has been running well with an occasional intermittent tuk tuk tuk noise(the noise is synchronized with rpm), then she runs smooth again. No excessive smoking at all, she is old so she does smoke a bit more than the average engine when first started , but as the engine heats up the smoking goes away.
On my last fishing trip at idle the engine suddenly stopped, On trying to restart her the engine was locked up.
first did the following checks.
1.Checked that the prop shaft turns , yes (i have a capitol 2:1 hydraulic gearbox)
2.Tried to turn crank shaft by hand, No go,
3.Checked coolant, looked clean no sign of oil
4.Checked Oil, was a bit low but no sign of water

A friend was close by so after fishing for a few hours he towed me in to the closest marina, an hour into the tow, i tried starting the engine again, low and behold she started, a bit noisy with the Tuk Tuk noise so i turned her off.

After tying up at the marina we checked the crank shaft again by hand for a few turns, she turned over fine, no obvious noise.
I then started her and cruised 2 hours back to my berth, engine ran smooth, no excess smoke and no noise.

I have noticed that she does seem to use a bit of oil, about 1L per 10-15 hrs

Any ideas of were to start looking?

She does not have glow plugs so I could not check for any liquids in the cylinders without removing the injectors.

My thoughts are check the equalizers, behind the trans i believe, for the noise.
Have my injectors reconditioned , Just incase?

The conversion is a Lees Marine, they are quite reputable here in NZ

Any pointers will be appreciated

 

[meridian]

Sounds like a damper plate, easy to replace if you can slide the Trans back. It looks like a clutch disk with springs around it to absorb the shock of the engine pulses. They rust out, break, and get stuck between the disk and block. That's probably the noise you are hearing.

 

[Ski in NC]

The tuk-tuk-tuk noise might be a sticky valve. Sticky valve moves suddenly and makes a loud noise out air intake. Check valve lash and push on each rocker to make sure none are sticking.

Does not explain it shutting down and being seized. But check easy stuff first.

Any milkshake under oil fill cap on rocker cover?

At idle warmed up, is blowby puffing out oil fill cap, or a steady waft of vapor?

 

[KiwiExplorer]

Sounds like a damper plate, easy to replace if you can slide the Trans back. It looks like a clutch disk with springs around it to absorb the shock of the engine pulses. They rust out, break, and get stuck between the disk and block. That's probably the noise you are hearing.

Checking the damper plate is a priority, (thats what i was referring to in saying equalizers, i did not know the right term ;-)

I have heaps of space to drop my universal joint and pull the gearbox back so this should be a reasonable job to do.

 

[KiwiExplorer]

The tuk-tuk-tuk noise might be a sticky valve. Sticky valve moves suddenly and makes a loud noise out air intake. Check valve lash and push on each rocker to make sure none are sticking.

Does not explain it shutting down and being seized. But check easy stuff first.

Any milkshake under oil fill cap on rocker cover?

At idle warmed up, is blowby puffing out oil fill cap, or a steady waft of vapor?

I did have the valves and clearances checked about 6 months back, I would have thought that if a valve was sticky it would result in a hard knock and immediate damage to the piston, in addition to some additional indications like rough running or smoking.

I will get the valves checked just to be sure.

 

[KiwiExplorer]

The tuk-tuk-tuk noise might be a sticky valve. Sticky valve moves suddenly and makes a loud noise out air intake. Check valve lash and push on each rocker to make sure none are sticking.

Does not explain it shutting down and being seized. But check easy stuff first.

Any milkshake under oil fill cap on rocker cover?

At idle warmed up, is blowby puffing out oil fill cap, or a steady waft of vapor?

No milkshake under the oil fill cap at all,
There is a bit of blowby puffing out the oil fill cap and the breather pipe from the valve cover to the air filter has picked up some oil.

The engine is due for its annual service, new oil and filters as well as impellers and fuel filters. I will be checking the oil filter for signs of metal filings.

 

[Xsbank]

Sorry, but you said it seized. It's toast. It's likely the number 6 cylinder as that is the worst-cooled of the 6. Pull out all the injectors (easy) and peek in there with a borescope. Chances are pretty good you will see scoring on the cyl walls, usually caused by overheating. If you do, you are a candidate for a rebuild.

Your oil consumption may or may not be related, depends on how much total oil you put in. Like the coolant, it tends to seek its own level quite quickly and lots of 'em toss the first quart/litre quite quickly.

When it's out you can look at the damper plate, which may also be toast, but I think there is no relation in this case.

 

[KiwiExplorer]

Sorry, but you said it seized. It's toast. It's likely the number 6 cylinder as that is the worst-cooled of the 6. Pull out all the injectors (easy) and peek in there with a borescope. Chances are pretty good you will see scoring on the cyl walls, usually caused by overheating. If you do, you are a candidate for a rebuild.

Your oil consumption may or may not be related, depends on how much total oil you put in. Like the coolant, it tends to seek its own level quite quickly and lots of 'em toss the first quart/litre quite quickly.

When it's out you can look at the damper plate, which may also be toast, but I think there is no relation in this case.

Locked up then freed up again not seized

 

[Xsbank]

'Scuse me but what do you think happened to make it "lock up?"

You did say you needed a tow?

I stand by my comments. Good luck with it.

 

[Ski in NC]

I don't see a piston seizing at idle, which is when it stopped. A piston seizing from heat is almost always at a high power setting. Sounds more like some foreign material in a cylinder. Or a valve seat dropped.

I'd first check that all valves are free to move and also check valve lash- see if any have changed much from normal settings.

Also seen where a cam drive gear got loose on a camshaft, caused valve timing to drift and cause all sorts of strange issues. Pistons were hitting valves.

And also seen a drive plate spring come loose and jam the flywheel.

 

[av8r]

Sorry, but you said it seized. It's toast. It's likely the number 6 cylinder as that is the worst-cooled of the 6. Pull out all the injectors (easy) and peek in there with a borescope. Chances are pretty good you will see scoring on the cyl walls, usually caused by overheating. If you do, you are a candidate for a rebuild.

Your oil consumption may or may not be related, depends on how much total oil you put in. Like the coolant, it tends to seek its own level quite quickly and lots of 'em toss the first quart/litre quite quickly.

When it's out you can look at the damper plate, which may also be toast, but I think there is no relation in this case.

So, Xs, are you still saying the injectors on a 120 can be removed without pulling the rocker shaft assembly?

 

[KiwiExplorer]

Sounds like a damper plate, easy to replace if you can slide the Trans back. It looks like a clutch disk with springs around it to absorb the shock of the engine pulses. They rust out, break, and get stuck between the disk and block. That's probably the noise you are hearing.

I have an old Capitol gearbox, After speaking to a mechanic, he tells me that this type of gearbox does not have a damper plate, it is direct coupled.

I am still pulling the gearbox out to check it out, I still have to check out the tappets.

I am still suspicious of the gearbox, but confused as the engine and gearbox ran fine for 2 hours after she released form lockup, I dont know if its a coincidence but she unlocked after i put the gearbox in reverse with the engine off.

The mystery continues

 

[bayview]

What ski said. A logical sequence to investigate

 

[Xsbank]

Yes, I changed all of my injectors without pulling the rocker arm.

 

[psneeld]

The mech I worked with in Charleston did remove the rocker arm assembly...there seems to be 2 opinions out there whether it needs to be removed or not.

Those of the "not" crowd...any tricks/tips to get the injectors out without removing the rocker arm assembly.

 

[Marin]

The Ford shop manual for the 2700 series of engines says in the engine disassembly section "Remove the rocker cover and remove the injectors."

There are no instructions to remove the rocker arm assembly prior to removing the injectors.

The shop manual for this series of engines is included in the "Manuals" section of the Grand Banks owners forum.

 

[psneeld]

Good in the manual...not so much if your the guy without a million tools...or just the specific shop tools necessary for that particular job....

Often I have had to remove objects from machinery to get to a specific bolthead or something to continue...it may not be "in the manual" but trying to stand on your head and get leverage one handed when just taking the other part off isn't in the equation if time is of the essence.

I'm just curious why so many DO remove the rocker arm assembly if it doesn't need to be....that's why I asked for tips or tricks from those that don't...maybe I should have included specialty tools in the tips question.

 

[av8r]

Those who say you can remove the injectors on a FL 120 without removing the rocker shaft assembly ... never have. They have read about it in the manual and write as if they were experts. Talk to American Diesel, or try it.

 

[Xsbank]

Av8r, you are wrong. It's an easy job and a waste of time to take off the rockers. I have done it, and because I got a faulty injector, I did it again.

You also do not need an injector puller or any other special tool. Just make sure you fish out the old washers. The return line is a common place for leaks and you need a new washer or you must anneal the old ones.

The thing is with Lehmans, they are probably the easiest engine you could possibly work on. The old clam crusher is as tolerant of ham-fisted amateurs as it is reliable. Service it occassionally and adjust the valves once in a while. That's it.

 

[jleonard]

In a Recent MTOA magazine Bob Smith gives a step by step procedure for changing injectors.
There is NO mention of removing the rocker assembly.
Not an expert never did that job, but I plan to before spring launch.

 

[av8r]

I'd be delighted to be proven wrong about this.

A constructive approach to the OP would be to suggest scoping the cylinders and doing a compression test, either leak-down or direct. Both require removing the injectors which may or may not be an easy chore and may or may not entail removing and reinstalling the rocker shaft assembly. If you are the one doing the work, you get to choose which way. If you are paying someone to do it, you get to see which way they do it.

 

[Xsbank]

Av8r, check out post number 7.
You seem somewhat grumpy about injectors. They come out just fine without removing the rockers. You'll have to trust me on this, unless you want to pop the top off one of your engines and just try it? Give you an excuse to check and adjust the valves...

 

[BruceK]

I wouldn`t mind hearing from the OP how the search for a cause is going?

 

[KiwiExplorer]

Hi Again

After removing the gearbox i have been able to establish that the lockup was caused by my gearbox after all, being an old Capitol 2HDEC8900 parts are very rare, now looking for a replacement gearbox.
Thanks to all for the pointers

 

[sunchaser]

KiwiExplorer

An active and relevant thread on TF is "how often does one change oil in a gear box or transmission?" Changing TX oil and looking for bits and pieces can help foretell looming issues

Any bits and pieces show up from your regular oil changes or idea as to cause of your TX failure? Don't the Capitol boxes have a magnetic drain plug? What does it show now?

 

[Adelaide]

Hi Again

After removing the gearbox i have been able to establish that the lockup was caused by my gearbox after all, being an old Capitol 2HDEC8900 parts are very rare, now looking for a replacement gearbox.
Thanks to all for the pointers

So your engine wasn't "toast" after all?

 

[KiwiExplorer]

KiwiExplorer

An active and relevant thread on TF is "how often does one change oil in a gear box or transmission?" Changing TX oil and looking for bits and pieces can help foretell looming issues

Any bits and pieces show up from your regular oil changes or idea as to cause of your TX failure? Don't the Capitol boxes have a magnetic drain plug? What does it show now?

I have only owned the boat for 18 months, so the history is unknown, I did notice that the prop would turn slowly in neutral, This I recently discovered is a sign that the clutch plates are on their way out. When taking out the gearbox and checking in the bottom there were some very fine filings, not much though.
I have contacted the Capitol guys and they helped me identify the gearbox model but have not been able to tell me what spares are available. Considering that it is very old, I have decided to look at replacement with a more current box, this way I can manage the maintenance and know that I have a reliable transmittion with parts available should it be required. Sometimes its better to replace than to try spend good money after bad.
On top of the new gearbox Im in for matching bell housing, damper plates and having the gearbox to shaft coupling re engineered. all part of owning a boat with older engine and gear train. (BOAT: Bring On Another Thousand)
The good news is I can get it all done before this summer and should have a great season.

 

[KiwiExplorer]

So your engine wasn't "toast" after all?

No the engine is not toast, some good to go with the not so good

 

[FF]

Considering that it is very old, I have decided to look at replacement with a more current box,

Look at the Twin Disc selection.These are commercial grade , and can easily be found rebuilt .

Look in https://www.boats-and-harbors.com/ both the classifies and advertisement sections.

 

[Ski in NC]

Kiwi- What has convinced you that the gearbox was in bad enough shape to cause a lockup? That is a fairly rare scenario. It can happen where the clutches not being used get hot and seize, that can be determined by blue steel discs, burn clutch facing and burnt oil. Did gear case ever get super hot?

Just trying to make sure you are on the right path...