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Old 12-15-2010, 01:54 PM   #21
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:
Navigator I sure like the looks of you boat.**Length and beem*and who is mfg?* You cn not post a picture like that having*us droole all over it with put some information?*
She is being built by*Seahorse Marine in Zhuhai, China (the diesel duck people) and is a modified version of their 52' fibreglass passagemaker. Lots of pictures on our website.
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Old 12-15-2010, 03:09 PM   #22
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
Navigator wrote:

*
Phil Fill wrote:
Navigator I sure like the looks of you boat. Length and beem and who is mfg?* You cn not post a picture like that having*us droole all over it with put some information?
She is being built by*Seahorse Marine in Zhuhai, China (the diesel duck people) and is a modified version of their 52' fibreglass passagemaker. Lots of pictures on our website.
Beautiful boat, and a great website. Thanks!!!

*
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Old 12-15-2010, 03:32 PM   #23
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Flo Scan

Quote:
Navigator wrote:

*

She is being built by*Seahorse Marine in Zhuhai, China (the diesel duck people) and is a modified version of their 52' fibreglass passagemaker.
Hi, "big brother"!* ... Dang, none of the progress photos from Seahorse show men working on my Coot.* I'm suspecting that trolls*are assigned to*work on it at night.


-- Edited by markpierce on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 05:14:53 PM
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:19 PM   #24
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RE: Flo Scan

I like having the Floscan, but it doesn't actually tell me anything the prop demand fuel curve doesn't tell me.* At a set rpm, any engine is going to burn a given amount of fuel turning a prop in water.* When cold, we burn a bit more, when warmed up, less.* When pushing up a wave crest, a bit more, when rolling downhill a bit less but the average is constant.* I can look at the tach and tell you what the Floscan is telling me.* Is it worth it?* Dunno, but it fills in a hole in the instrument panel.....
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:20 PM   #25
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RE: Flo Scan

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markpierce wrote:

Hi, "big brother"!* ... Dang, none of the progress photos from Seahorse show men working on my Coot.* I'm suspecting that trolls*are assigned to*work on it at night.


-- Edited by markpierce on Wednesday 15th of December 2010 05:14:53 PM
Hey Mark,*

You may be right. When we visited the steel yard (during daylight) we didn't see anyone working on any of the diesel ducks or the Coot.

*
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:17 PM   #26
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
Delfin wrote:I like having the Floscan, but it doesn't actually tell me anything the prop demand fuel curve doesn't tell me.
Not true!
When the needle jumps up to a flow that isn't normal for your boat, you can bet
you have a fuel leak in the engine room. It's happened to me and I saw it
immediately. A check of* the engine room showed fuel spurting out of an engine
mounted fuel filter that hadn't been tightened properly. A thorough knowledge
of the FloScan will tell you a bunch of other things too. (Note:The prop demand
fuel curve won't tell you you have a fuel leak.)




*
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Old 12-15-2010, 08:55 PM   #27
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RE: Flo Scan

Below is a post from another boating forum concerning the question of installing flow flow gauges.

"I guess I'm going to be the voice of decent on this one...........

With 3126's you will need to plumb senders into both the*fuel supply and return lines which means the cost for installation is going to be close to 2X what it is on a gas boat. Every place you break into a diesel line is one more place for a leak.*

Aside from the cost, I also question the need on a Cat powered boat. I use Caterpillar*fuel tables and find them to be right on the money as far as GPH. On a 300 gal fill up, I am usually within 5-10 gal of what I expect and have computed from the tables.*

Using a*fuel flow meter to spot something wrong........? On a diesel if you are observant, you will hear or see problems quickly by smoke, smoke color, sooting, starting problems, acceleration problems, etc. many times before you see it in*fuel flow.

As far as using*fuel flow to tweak running attitude, keep your eye on the ball here: set the rpms at the*fuel burn you are comfortable with (from the Cat tables), then trim the bow up or down until you achieve the maximum speed at that rpm setting. That is a lot easier than investing $1200 and 3-4 days installing*fuel flow meters and it gets you the same result."


My take: if you've got the money why not? However with a little effort the same info can be computed without spending the money and you will know your boat and engines much better.
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Old 12-15-2010, 09:07 PM   #28
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:
Not true!
When the needle jumps up to a flow that isn't normal for your boat, you can bet
you have a fuel leak in the engine room. It's happened to me and I saw it
immediately. A check of* the engine room showed fuel spurting out of an engine
mounted fuel filter that hadn't been tightened properly. A thorough knowledge
of the FloScan will tell you a bunch of other things too. (Note:The prop demand
fuel curve won't tell you you have a fuel leak.)

Brother, if you need a gauge to tell you when you have diesel fuel squirting all over your engine room, remind me not to go boating with you.

*
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Old 12-15-2010, 09:45 PM   #29
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RE: Flo Scan

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Delfin wrote:
Brother, if you need a gauge to tell you when you have diesel fuel squirting all over your engine room, remind me not to go boating with you.
I've had a little experience with this. I tried to change my engine mounted fuel filter which I found very difficult to get to. I used a toothed lever type filter wrench but was unable to remove it. Unknown to me I damaged the fuel filter when I attempted to remove it. Went out for a cruise and when I returned found about 2 qts of fuel in the bilge. The damaged filter leaked fuel and I doubt I would have noticed this on a fuel flow gauge.*I'm just glad I didn't have a gas boat.


Finally was able to change the filter and have the scars to prove it.
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Old 12-15-2010, 11:04 PM   #30
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
Delfin wrote:Brother, if you need a gauge to tell you when you have diesel fuel squirting all over your engine room, remind me not to go boating with you.
As usual, when someone doesn't agree with your post, you resort to personal
attacks.

You've completely missed the point. The point is, when knowledgeable about
what FloScan is and can do for you, it's not just about how much fuel you've
burned and how much you have left. Like radar and the MFD chart plotters,
there is so much more to these devices than simply turning them on and
and seeing the little boat on a map.


*
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:57 AM   #31
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RE: Flo Scan

I see it as a tool, not the only tool but it seems to be one that is used alot, perhaps not everyone needs it or likes it, but then again we all don't own the same style or type boat. I'm sure over the years we all get to know the best run rate for our engines, hull design and areas that we visit most.* I started asking this question because I'm new to diesels and this thing has 6v92's which LOOK huge to me, so any tool that can improve my learning curve, I appreciate. I'm sure after a few years and many miles I'll be a handle on the best way to run these engines. But just out of the gate, appreciate the comments. This is a a great place to learn alot quickly, Like being at one big marina, just wish I had a beer to be out walking the docks and talking to everyone, but I guess in December this is the next best thing. Thanks for the input. If the budget allows after I get done with the boat yard and engine mechanic, I'll install a set of flo scans. Maybe Santa will surprise me...
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:21 AM   #32
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RE: Flo Scan

The floscans I had indicated the fluel flow in real time and also included a resetable "totalizer" which keeps a running track of how many gallons have been consumed. Once this is calibrated you will know just how much fuel you have burned and of course how much you have in the tanks. This feature alone has always been useful to me.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:16 AM   #33
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Flo Scan

A few examples of what FloScan can show you.

As you establish your boat's sweet spot, taking advantage of the fuel savings it provides, make note of the fuel consumption at a variety of RPM levels. If you know that your boat burns 17 gallons-per-hour at 4200 RPM under normal conditions and the fuel consumption suddenly changes by a few gallons in either direction, it's a signal that something is wrong. A drop of a few gallons-per-hour is not a gift from the boating gods, it usually indicates a clogged injector nozzle. You might not feel it in the engine's performance, but you can see it on the FloScan's readout as plain as day. Left unchecked it can cause one or more cylinders to run lean and overheat. In a four-stroke engine, you might get away with just burning an exhaust valve, which requires a costly top-end rebuild. In a two-stroke, the result can be even worse-a burned piston. And then it's time to replace the entire short block.Say you're running and notice that at 4200 RPM, instead of the normal 17 gallons-per-hour, the FloScan indicates a jump to 25. It could indicate a dangerous fuel leak near or on the engine, which can lead to a fire or with a gasoline engine even an explosion. A less dramatic increase to 20 gallons-per-hour is indicative of damage to the propeller. Minor damage to a propeller blade doesn't always create an imbalance, which can be felt as a vibration, but it can still increase fuel consumption considerably. A dinged blade can decrease efficiency enough to cause the boat to burn 10 to 20 percent more fuel at cruising speeds.

Fot those who are interested, there are more examples here:

FloScan Article

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 16th of December 2010 10:30:40 AM
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:53 PM   #34
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:As usual, when someone doesn't agree with your post, you resort to personal
attacks.

You've completely missed the point. The point is, when knowledgeable about
what FloScan is and can do for you, it's not just about how much fuel you've
burned and how much you have left. Like radar and the MFD chart plotters,
there is so much more to these devices than simply turning them on and
and seeing the little boat on a map.
Sorry you felt personally attacked.*

My point was that most folks generally start the engine after changing fuel or oil filters to make sure they aren't leaking, rather than relying on a guage to break the news to them that their bilge is filling up with diesel.* I probably check the ER when underway about every 30 minutes, again rather than relying on guages to alert me to issues.* I like my Floscan, but doubt I need it to tell me my prop is out of balance since the vibration would be a telltale, especially after hitting whatever dinged the prop.* Clogged fuel nozzles will show themselves with excessive smoke, rough idling and hesitant acceleration probably more clearly than a change in fuel consumption.* And like you, I agree that operating a vessel is more than starting them up and looking at guages.* Including the Floscan, which is a useful device but hardly a substitute for common sense.

*
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:37 PM   #35
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Flo Scan

Quote:
Delfin wrote:1. My point was that most folks generally start the engine after changing fuel or oil filters to make sure they aren't leaking, rather than relying on a guage to break the news to them that their bilge is filling up with diesel.

2. ....but doubt I need it to tell me my prop is out of balance since the vibration would be a telltale, especially after hitting whatever dinged the prop.

*
1.* It's been my experience that sh*t happens and it's not always predictable.* Hoses crack, seals start to leak, vibration takes its toll on connections, you name it.* You can't count on problems appearing when you're standing or squatting in front of the hardware that's going to have the problem.* Even if you inspect the engine room every thirty minutes, what about the thing that craps out fifteen minutes after*your last visit?* A lot of fuel can leak or spray out during the fifteen minutes before your next visit.* A fire can get going really good in the next fifteen minutes.* And so on.



2.* Not something you can count on, however.* After some nine years of using our boat we took the four-bladed*props into the best prop shop in Seattle as part of the process of*having to buy (we thought)*new props.* What the shop determined was that our current props were a disaster.* We had never hit anything.* But they had been hiddeously set up by the last person to work on them, which would have been in the San Francisco Bay area prior to our buying the boat.

Both props were out of balance, some of the blades were slightly shorter than others, the pitch of each blade on each prop was different than the pitch of the other blades, a big section of one blade on one of the props*wasn't even moving water at cruise speed.* They explained to me how improperly using an outdated method of adjusting prop blades probably resulted in all these problems.

But, they said, the props were fine physically.* No need to replace them.* They trimmed the blades to all be the same length, pitched them all correctly, and balanced them.* All using state-of-the art computer-based equipment.

But..... in the nine years prior to this being done we had never experienced even the slightest amount of vibration.* You could put your hand on the shafts at cruise speed and feel nothing--- no wiggle, no shake, no vibration--- nothing.* So a lack of vibration does not automatically mean all is well with the propellers.

Walt's point about*a Flo-Scan providing information that can give you clues about multiple aspects of*your drive train's condition and performance*is totally valid.* We don't have Flo-Scans on our our engines, not because we believe they are of little or no value, but because we don't have Flo-Scans on our engines.* If we had them I'm sure we would learn to*incorporate their information into all the other things we use to keep track of what's going on under the cabin sole--- gauges, smells, sounds, and feel.

We have a slow boat.* One could make a theoretical*case that we don't really*need radar since we are just sort of creeping along.* Or a plotter.* We're going slow enough that we could use depth soundings and the compass to keep track of where we are.* (I know one sailboater who actually does this.)* But we get a lot of good information from the radar and the plotters even though we don't actually need them to run the boat from Point A to Point B.* I see a Flo-Scan as one more tool to help paint the big picture.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 16th of December 2010 07:44:29 PM
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:09 PM   #36
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RE: Flo Scan

Marin, your props were "improperly set up", and needed to be tuned.* What was described was using a FloScan to detect a change in fuel consumption as a result of a change in the prop.* To affect fuel consumption, something more than improper pitch years old would be required.* I like Floscan.* I have a Floscan.* I want to keep my Floscan.* However, barring mechanical problems relatively easily detectable from other symptoms, the Floscan tells me nothing that the prop demand fuel consumption table for the engine tells me, or at least that has been my experience.

The idea that one would use the Floscan to diagnose the range of problems described is like saying you would use the softness of your butter as an indication that your house is on fire.* Asking a bit much of the device, or so it seems to me.

Sorry if I have offended suggesting otherwise.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:34 PM   #37
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
Delfin wrote:

The idea that one would use the Floscan to diagnose the range of problems described is like saying you would use the softness of your butter as an indication that your house is on fire.* Asking a bit much of the device, or so it seems to me.

In some situations, the softness of a stick of butter could very well indicate a heat problem if one happened to notice what the butter was doing and wondered why.* An awful lot of problems have been discovered and subsequently resolved*because somebody noticed something unexpected or*puzzling*was happening, wondered why, and investigated further.**It happens every day in the company I work for.

I suspect it comes down to individual ability.* Some people understand and can interpret data--- be it what comes from a computer application, a sensor, a "funny noise," an unusual smell, you name it--- better than others.**For me to*assume that because I can't interpret data I'm reading,*seeing, hearing, smelling,*or feeling**means nobody else*can either*is perhaps more a reflection on my own abilities-- or lack of them---*in a particular case than on someone else's.

*
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:37 PM   #38
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RE: Flo Scan

A few of us on this forum have the nicety of a "walk in" ER. This nicety allows us to monitor things by eye while underway. So every crucial spot gets a look, IR temp gun readings, feel for vibration, fuel and water line checks etc.

In a vessel with only hatch access, specialized gauges for monitoring things can indeed be a lifesaver. Although using a floscan to spot leaks seems a bit of a stretch, if that brings comfort, so be it.

This past week, on my vessel,*an exhaust elbow was noted to*have a bit of a drip during operation. Oh - Oh, replacement time is here. Other than eyes, few techniques are available for picking up minor things (although 2 new special build 316 elbows are not cheap) before they turn into major.

So cameras, floscans, prayer beads or whatever are sometimes very helpful for non walk in ERs to*catch the odd happenings.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:28 PM   #39
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RE: Flo Scan

Good point, Tom.* Walk in ERs should be 'walked in' regularly, but absent that luxury, additional ways of monitoring what is going on are helpful, certainly including accurate measurements of fuel consumption.* That said, I'm still scratching my head trying to think up an adverse condition a Floscan would pick up that sentience wouldn't, but maybe I lack imagination.
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Old 12-17-2010, 12:07 AM   #40
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RE: Flo Scan

Quote:
Marin wrote:But we get a lot of good information from the radar and the plotters even though we don't actually need them to run the boat from Point A to Point B.* I see a Flo-Scan as one more tool to help paint the big picture.
Yes, the "big picture" is the point, isn't it.

When I was flying, we called the "big picture" SA. (situational awareness) The
whole point of developing a good scan of the instrument panel was to improve our
"situational awareness."

We didn't really need a gyro compass, omni, GPS, autopilot, etc. to fly the plane,
all we really needed was an artificial horizon, needle ball, compass , watch, map
and an airspeed indicator.* (A good winds aloft forecast was helpful too!) Later, we
were exposed to all kinds of instruments, many of which didn't improve our flight
skills but DID improve our SA.


When navigating a boat, I don't think a 1 hour or 30 minute peek inside the
engine room constitutes good SA. As Marin pointed out...After leaving the engine
room, if you feel safe for another 30-60 minutes, that nothing is going to go
wrong, roll the dice and enjoy yourself! Not only do I open the hatch (I don't have
a walk in ER) every hour or so to CONFIRM what my instruments are telling me, I
get a pretty damn good idea as to how the machinery is working with the camera,
FloScan and all the other instruments EVERY TIME I SCAN. I don't wait 30-60
minutes to find out that all hell is breaking loose down below. But that's just me!
And to quote Forrest Gump..."that's all I have to say about that!"




*
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