External Oil Filtration

[Taras]

Hi all,
The boat I recently purchased came with Puradyn external oil filtration. These external oil filtration units are in addition to the oil filters that are mounted on the engine. There are 4 units on the boat, one for each main Cat 3304 motor and one for each generator.
Since this is the first time I have seen these, I thought I'd do some research.
I'm thinking the previous owner made a smart move by installing these when the boat was new back in 1992. The mains have over 5000 hours on them and the gennys have even more than that. After running the boat now for almost a year, I am very impressed that I rarely ever have to add any oil to either the mains or the gennys. No smoke at start up and they seem to be really tight still with little wear. I just ordered new Puradyn filters for my next oil change interval (filter cost = $49 ea).
Seems like a good idea for anyone looking to get max life out of their machinery.
Any other experience?

Puradyn.com

Taras

 

[Lepke]

There are a number of add on oil bypass filter systems on the market. They all collect more dirt than the stock engine. Going back to the 60s there was Frantz toilet paper filters and before that older engines usually had a bypass filter not a full flow. The bypass filters, because the oil passes thru very slowly, collect more dirt. Usually in the neighborhood of 1 micron. Full flow filters usually only catch dirt down to 30 micron.
My Detroits (Grey Marine) use a bypass as stock. Maybe that's why they went 60 years before overhaul.

 

[CaptSteve53]

The main difference between the add on external oil filters is usually their micron size of between the usual 3 - 10 max micron, where as your standard spin on engine oil filter has a micron of usually 20, (some 10) that compared with the widely accepted theory that the majority of engine wear is caused by particles in the oil that are around 4-5 microns in size shows why you get your longevity from external filters,

Cheers Steve

 

[FF]

Bypass filtering works best with engines that operate for hours on end , so all the oil gets a chance thru the filter.

 

[Ski in NC]

A filter might be rated at 30mic, but consider how many times the lube oil loops through the filter. Five gal sump, guessing a gal per minute flow. So each hour, whole sump goes through filter over ten times.

Filters are not absolute: A 30mic filter does not stop all 40mic particles and pass all 20mic particles. There are efficiency charts for each filter and the are classed on what percentage of each size particle they catch.

A 30mic filter might catch 50% of 2mic particles. Loop the sump load through the filter ten times and it will catch almost all the 2mic particles.

I don't advocate adding bypass filters with the expectation of any benefit. I think the single filter full flow arrangement is good enough to support an extremely long life of the base engine. Oil has to be changed for reasons other than small particle loading. And when engines fail, it almost always is due to things other than wear of lubed parts.

 

[Nomad Willy]

What is the size of carbon particles usually found in lube oil?

I read and hear that carbon is abrasive and is a major source of engine wear. It's said the the black in oil is carbon. What have others learned or heard about carbon in lube oil?

If by-pass filtration is very good at filtering out carbon it may be very valuable. But I think it's viewed as "it probably does a little good". Few are motivated to install it.

 

[Xsbank]

My Cummins was installed new in 1995. It still runs fine. How many years do you think it should be useful and why would I expect to go for more years than I expect it to? It was run commercially for 5 years with regular maintenance and now its use is non-commercial. It gets regular oil changes and other required maintenance but adding extra oil filtration for a pleasure boat? Total voodoo, not backed by the manufacturers, may benefit long distant truck fleets but there is only anecdotal evidence...I’d spend the money lowering engine room temps or replacing your coolant or doing your impellers...more filters in the landfill with no demonstrable benefit. You still need to change your oil.

There is one huge benefit that I can see, someone will get rich selling snake oil to boat owners.

 

[FOG]

A little bit off topic, but if an external oil filter line developed a leak which caused the oil pressure go to zero, how long do you think the diesel engine could run without causing internal damage?

 

[CaptSteve53]

What is the size of carbon particles usually found in lube oil?

I read and hear that carbon is abrasive and is a major source of engine wear. It's said the the black in oil is carbon. What have others learned or heard about carbon in lube oil?

If by-pass filtration is very good at filtering out carbon it may be very valuable. But I think it's viewed as "it probably does a little good". Few are motivated to install it.

Took part in a oil refresher course a few years back and believe they said most soot/carbon deposits are only around .03 microns in size(Memory recall!), how ever they can clump together to form larger particles. Individual soot particles normally pose little risk to engine parts, but clumps of soot can cause damage. Saying that how ever additives in today’s engine oils normally keep the individual soot particles from forming into damaging clumps. So if you are using a three micron external filter it should make a difference from the normal engine mounted filter as 20 micron (although some are ten)

 

[Ski in NC]

A little bit off topic, but if an external oil filter line developed a leak which caused the oil pressure go to zero, how long do you think the diesel engine could run without causing internal damage?

How long depends on how hard you are running it at the time. At idle or low power, it could last in the order of minutes to many minutes. At high power, you could have bearing damage before the alarm actually sounds. Alarms are set at a low pressure like 5 or 10psi. By the time pressure gets down there, bearings and pistons might already be damaged from heat.

I have seen this. A guy put prelube pumps on his 3116 Cats. A poorly chosen fitting blew while he was at high power. Alarm came in, he shut it right down. Fixed the leak and refilled the oil. Cranked it up and it knocked. Main bearings wiped.

Adding plumbing to your oil system means adding risk. Vibration inherent in engines can cause sneaky failures if not designed right.

 

[FOG]

Adding plumbing to your oil system means adding risk. Vibration inherent in engines can cause sneaky failures if not designed right.

Thanks. This is my concern.

 

[kapnd]

Engine manufacturers have to warranty their products, and are interested in maintaining a good reputation, so if additional bypass oil filtration would bullet proof your motor, it would have likely been equipped that way.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Took part in a oil refresher course a few years back and believe they said most soot/carbon deposits are only around .03 microns in size(Memory recall!), how ever they can clump together to form larger particles. Individual soot particles normally pose little risk to engine parts, but clumps of soot can cause damage. Saying that how ever additives in today’s engine oils normally keep the individual soot particles from forming into damaging clumps. So if you are using a three micron external filter it should make a difference from the normal engine mounted filter as 20 micron (although some are ten)

Steve53,
Thanks for the input. I thought "soot" as in "they said most soot/carbon deposits are only around .03 microns" was very soft and carbon very hard. I'm thinking they can't be the same thing?
Otherwise your post all adds up.

 

[CaptSteve53]

Eric, had to go back to the supplied course notes to offer some more info on that and the below are from those pages (not my work but no reference to give credits to(Perhaps credits should be to NORIA lubrication courses) -Im saying this as I have been warned by some members not to cut and paste as it's not in the forums best interest/nature of personal input!, but in order of completeness/thoroughness i couldn't remember or relate verbatim as well as my course notes)So if you dont mind here's a few points that should answer that question more clearly and perhaps explain to other interested members (with out spending the $1350 i did for the course),which is SOOT is basically made up from carbon particles

1) Soot includes the fine black particles, chiefly composed of carbon, produced by incomplete combustion of coal, oil, wood, or other fuels. Soot can consist of acids, chemicals, metals, soils, and dust. (Dec 11, 2013)

2) In Modern Diesel Fuel Direct Injected Engines soot generation is just a matter of fact. To lower Nox emissions, the function of the Exhaust Gas Re-circulation system is to re-direct some of this soot back into the cylinders thru the intake system. Some of this soot goes past the rings. As it is going past the rings, it fouls carbons/cokes up the piston ring packs and reduces their efficiency. It also allows even more soot past the piston rings over time. The engine oil suffers from soot loading, meaning the soot pollutes the engine oil reducing its efficiency and shortening oil life.

3) Soot loading in diesel engine oil can present wear problems. Diesel engines consume a carbon-rich fossil fuel that releases soot as a byproduct of combustion. Soot (see figure below) consists of micrometer-scale particles of elemental carbon. The existence of soot signifies incomplete combustion, which suggests an incorrect air/fuel ratio, improper combustion temperature, insufficient residence time in the combustion zone, and/or non-availability of sufficient oxidants (another way to say that the air/fuel ratio is too fuel-rich).

4) Such soot accumulations in the engine oil have been observed in the 2% to 10% range. In concentrations starting around 3 to 5% in the engine oil, soot can become problematic.

5) Soot is harmful in a number of ways when at excess levels in engine oil, but primarily through abrasion; especially if the carbon is agglomerated into clumps, which can cause valve train, ring and liner wear. Soot loading also causes a viscosity increase, which inhibits oil flow, especially in cold weather starts where the soot-laden engine oil can increase the time it takes for the oil to reach critical engine parts, such as the valve train.

Cheers Steve

 

[Searios]

Some Puradyn filter systems have a heater installed, which ensures that any water in the oil gets burned off, thereby removing humidity from the crankcase and internal engine parts. I like that....

 

[FF]

To monitor the oil pressure the option of a preset switch to alarm is not the only option.

The Murphy switch gauges can be set to alarm or secure the engine with a minor drop.

Up to the operator how close he sets them , even 1 lb can ring a bell if desired.

Large trucks install bypass filtration and seem to have no problems with the reliability of the installed units..

These are usually a factory option , or installed by pro ruck maint shops .

 

[Nomad Willy]

To monitor the oil pressure the option of a preset switch to alarm is not the only option.

The Murphy switch gauges can be set to alarm or secure the engine with a minor drop.

Up to the operator how close he sets them , even 1 lb can ring a bell if desired.

Large trucks install bypass filtration and seem to have no problems with the reliability of the installed units..

These are usually a factory option , or installed by pro ruck maint shops .

FF,
That's very supportive information you present.
I wonder what percentage of diesel trucks have by-pass? I have no idea even though I usta drive several. It seems to be fairly effective at filtering out carbon.

I suppose one may be just as well off changing oil more often. More cost in the long run though .... perfect for trucks and other high hour applications like stationary power plants. Maybe Sunchaser has some imput?

 

[smitty477]

Engine manufacturers have to warranty their products, and are interested in maintaining a good reputation, so if additional bypass oil filtration would bullet proof your motor, it would have likely been equipped that way.

Yes - I have had a number of engines where the manufacturer had bypass filtration rigged as stock either by a typical spin on filter or through a centrifuge. The buildup that would occur was quite enlightening even when the oil looked fairly clean.

 

[Nomad Willy]

CaptSteve53,
So the carbon is in the soot. This means the old time car mechanics that said to change oil when it turns black had a very valid point. I suspect that would pronote much more oil changing than most of us do as diesel lube oil turns black fairly fast on older engines.

 

[sunchaser]

I wonder what percentage of diesel trucks have by-pass? ?

Eric

On the big fleets, it is not uncommon that extended warranties are in place with aftermarket hang ons voiding the same. The truck and engine builders prefer to have the best of filtering systems as part of the the OEM process. After market stuff can lead to lowered fluid flows and decreased operating pressures. Not to mention pipe and fitting failures.

Whether on or off engine, the systems are designed to operate as "one unit." This includes engine oil, transmission fluids, coolant and in some cases drive axles.

Truckers are subjected to the same advertising we recreational boaters see. Whether promises for perfect oil and filtering, wonderful additives, miracle potions or mileage enhancing gizmos. The big fleets have decades of experience to draw from, the smaller less informed independents have their own version of dock talk to assess.

 

[High Wire]

Unless the goal is minimize wear or lube oil use at any cost, I don't see advantage over manufacturer recommended oil change intervals unless its prolonging overhaul for some internal failure.
FWIW, my main engine at 250 hours is still clear and darkened. Oil analysis is good. My old gen was fully opaque black at 25 hours and looked the same 200 hours later.
A generator on a boat we chartered, the oil resembled black mud clinging to the dipstick in clumps. The checkout capt said it was still ok.

 

[Ski in NC]

If I was running a commercial engine for many hundreds or thousands of hours per year, I would consider adding secondary lube filtration such as a centrifuge or bypass filter. Along with oil sampling to go as long as possible on an oil change. For economic reasons.

For pleasure boats running low hours, just change the oil on schedule. Most of our oil changes are around a hundred bucks per engine.

If yours came with a secondary filter, great, maintain it and motor on. Some engines did come from the factory that way such as the Cummins 450, some Volvos, some Yanmars, some others.

If it did not come from the factory that way, I would not add it unless in super high hour usage. It needs to be properly engineered in all aspects.

 

[mramoo]

This is a little off topic, but it does refer to oil cleanliness. Many years ago when I was much younger, I was employed by an International Industrial Hydraulic company. When a customer would request a system for their plant, a bypass filter system was always recommended. These systems consisted of an external pump and filter unit that would take fluid from the tank run it through the filter and back into the tank. I have seen hydraulic systems that have run for decades with only nominal wear to the main pump and valves. Most of these systems were installed in much dirtier environments than we see on our boats. I myself know that this type of a bypass system is a good thing.

 

[CaptSteve53]

CaptSteve53,
So the carbon is in the soot. This means the old time car mechanics that said to change oil when it turns black had a very valid point. I suspect that would pronote much more oil changing than most of us do as diesel lube oil turns black fairly fast on older engines.

Eric,

Yes all correct, how ever most of the more modern engine lubricants contain better additives regarding cleaning actions,saying that: we had a serious issue with our Cat powered(C12's and C18's) large seismic air compressors mounted on the rear deck of the supply vessel it was mounted on, basically had three units destroy them selves just out of warranty, LONG STORY SHORT-and hence my 5 day Noria oil course and subsequent oil analysis we found the oil was full of soot(and clumped carbon) causing the premature wear, caused by sucking in dirty soot laden air from the ships main engines, Solution was to go from the single unit air filter and use a triple air intake filter system, external oil filtration was fitted, and oil changes @ 200 hours, now running around 10'000 hours with no issues,(these are large compressors @800 CFM running 3000 psi so the engines work real hard! @ 24 hours a day for weeks at a time)

Cheers Steve

 

[Taras]

Yes, all 4 of my Puradyn filters have a heating element on the inside top cap of each filter housing. This burns off any moisture oil the oil.
It's a really well thought out system and for the money, why not extend the life of your machinery. I would especially add this system to Detriots as their life span is short relative to 4 stroke diesels.

 

[Lepke]

I would especially add this system to Detriots as their life span is short relative to 4 stroke diesels.

Maybe the 4 cycle Detroits. The 2 cycles are know for reliability and long live between overhaul unless they have dumb captains.

Soot will clump together making larger particles. Bypass oil filters, because the oil flow is very slow and at low pressure, allows the water to separate and can be found in the bottom of the spin on type or below the cartridge in canister types. Some catch an ounce or more. Most bypass filters I have used catch 2 micron debris and below. Better ones below 1 micron. I know because I have tested my oil over 40 years and many engine types.

In my diesel pu, the oil is still slightly transparent at 5000 miles. Before I went to a centrifuge, the oil in my DDs was transparent. I changed the bypass filter when started going dark.

One issue in diesel engines, if the oil isn't changed often enough, sometimes even if it is, the soot will build in oil passages, slowing flow. In smaller passages like the ones going to the head and turbo, it can restrict the flow enough to ruin bearings, rockers and seals (because heat isn't being drawn away by the oil). This is even more apparent on small, high speed, light duty yacht engines.

 

[FF]

Truck stuff is robust and usually 1/4 - 1/20 "boat stuff" prices.

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[sunchaser]

Yes, all 4 of my Puradyn filters have a heating element on the inside top cap of each filter housing. This burns off any moisture oil the oil. .

Or have an engine designed to maintain oil temperatures above 185F or so.

 

[sunchaser]

Eric,

Yes all correct, how ever most of the more modern engine lubricants contain better additives regarding cleaning actions,saying that: we had a serious issue with our Cat powered(C12's and C18's) large seismic air compressors mounted on the rear deck of the supply vessel it was mounted on, basically had three units destroy them selves just out of warranty, Cheers Steve

Steve, two questions. Who designed the original compressor layout? Second, what is sulfur PPM in diesel fuel the Cats are using?