Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-19-2012, 02:49 PM   #61
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
"So while I would not put a Warn winch intended to be mounted on a Jeep on the bow of my boat to use as an anchor windlass,"

Agreed , but they work just delightfully on a hoist to pull our 14Ft Feathercraft Vagabond with 40 hp electric start.

Sure I would prefer it hooked to the on board hyd system , but the hose would cost more than a Warn.

." Misguided confidence often IMHO but confidence nevertheless."

A visit to a boat with a "seacock" that is simply a thru hull with a ball valve stuck on is proof that Marine (and some respected MFG) should not be the source of ANY confidence.

FF
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 03:07 PM   #62
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Wire and electrical connectors are another one.

That brings another question to mind:

Why is it heavily recommended (by those termed experts) that ALL marine wire (at very least on their ends) and wire connectors be tinned. I can understand tinning to reduce corrosion/oxidation when the electric items are exposed to actual salt water contact/influence on a boat's exterior, or maybe even below decks in the engine compartment etc that might have salt water bilge evaporation... but, is tinning really necessary inside the basic climate control of salons/staterooms/galley/heads/cabin pilot stations? And, other than outside in actual contact with salt spray's influence... is tinning really necessary, especially on interior wire ends and connectors that are well protected from salt water/air/evaporation influences.

Just wondering!
__________________

Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 04:05 PM   #63
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"So while I would not put a Warn winch intended to be mounted on a Jeep on the bow of my boat to use as an anchor windlass,"

Agreed , but they work just delightfully on a hoist to pull our 14Ft Feathercraft Vagabond with 40 hp electric start.

Sure I would prefer it hooked to the on board hyd system , but the hose would cost more than a Warn.

." Misguided confidence often IMHO but confidence nevertheless."

A visit to a boat with a "seacock" that is simply a thru hull with a ball valve stuck on is proof that Marine (and some respected MFG) should not be the source of ANY confidence.

FF
Exaggly!!
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 04:13 PM   #64
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
That brings another question to mind:

Why is it heavily recommended (by those termed experts) that ALL marine wire (at very least on their ends) and wire connectors be tinned. I can understand tinning to reduce corrosion/oxidation when the electric items are exposed to actual salt water contact/influence on a boat's exterior, or maybe even below decks in the engine compartment etc that might have salt water bilge evaporation... but, is tinning really necessary inside the basic climate control of salons/staterooms/galley/heads/cabin pilot stations? And, other than outside in actual contact with salt spray's influence... is tinning really necessary, especially on interior wire ends and connectors that are well protected from salt water/air/evaporation influences.

Just wondering!
Can't say for sure but in my eperience...10 year old tinned wire cut back an inch still looks new. Untinned wire cut back it's ENTIRE length sometimes is already black around every strand. Now...if properly crimped to begin with...it doesn't really matter as there is no corrosion between the wire and the crimp so the connection remains good...however when the time comes to put a new crimp on...it can be a struggle to get a shiny new connection.

Gross generalization??? You bet...but I have had better luck with tinned wire when working in less than ideal situations.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 04:24 PM   #65
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
That brings another question to mind:

Why is it heavily recommended (by those termed experts) that ALL marine wire (at very least on their ends) and wire connectors be tinned.

Art--- If you feel up to a journey through the archives of this forum you will find at least one fairly recent and rather heated discussion on this very subject. I didn't participate--- my dog knows more about electrical stuff than I do--- but the pros and cons of using tinned wire on a boat were discussed, or argued, at great length as I recall.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 04:30 PM   #66
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Can't say for sure but in my eperience...10 year old tinned wire cut back an inch still looks new. Untinned wire cut back it's ENTIRE length sometimes is already black around every strand.
It's not water, it's not falling apart, and it's not the end of the world:

Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 04:35 PM   #67
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
It's not water, it's not falling apart, and it's not the end of the world:

Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning
Yep...just as I thought...no real right or wrong answer. In the perfect world tinning isn't necessary.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 04:56 PM   #68
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
It's not water, it's not falling apart, and it's not the end of the world:

Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning
TY - RB - Good link i.e. "Stretch Your Budget by Tossing Tinning"

In my young days... I favored watching "Rin Tin Tin" on TV, of the NW Mounted Police! That too has seen it day! lol
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 05:11 PM   #69
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
In the perfect world tinning isn't necessary.
It's not needed in our world either.

I'll let someone else throw a bone at King.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 07:25 PM   #70
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
................ Wire and electrical connectors are another one.
.............................. I'm just fine with buying fasteners and wire and connecters and wire ties and PVC pipe and connectors, sandpaper, blue tape, brushes and a whole lot of other stuff from the Aces, Home Despots, Sears, etc. of the world. At a fraction of what the same components would cost with a marine store bar code on them.
A very big difference.

Sandpaper from Sears is just fine. Same for brushes and even wire ties. SS fasteners may be OK or they may be inferior. I will admit to buying most of my SS fasteners and wire ties at Lowes or a local independent hardware store.

There is a very big difference between the wire or cable and connectors labeled for marine use and the wire or cable and connectors you typically find in home centers or Sears. I only use "marine" wire and cable and connectors. The risk is not worth the few cents or dollars saved. I would be very upset if I paid a technician and found he was using inferior materials.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 07:52 PM   #71
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants.

The "marine" packages are wholesaled and retailed for between four and ten times the amounts that the same components made by the same machines out of the same materials are sold for in the packages that don't say "marine" on them. While this is certainly not true of everything, he said, it is true of a lot more stuff than most people realize.

Another manufacturer's "trick" he told me about and showed me examples of is changing the color of the material used in the part. So they'll use brown plastic to mold a circuit breaker case in one run and then they'll use black plastic to mold the same case in another run. The breakers made with black cases get the "marine" packaging and instruction sheet. The breakers made with brown cases get the house brand packaging and instructions and go to the hardware stores where they are sold for a much lower but more competitive price.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 08:07 PM   #72
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging is labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants.

The "marine" packages are wholesaled and retailed for between four and ten times the amounts that the same components made by the same machines out of the same materials are sold for in the packages that don't say "marine" on them. While this is certainly not true of everything, he said, it is true of a lot more stuff than most people realize.

Another manufacturer's "trick" he told me about and showed me examples of is changing the color of the material used in the part. So they'll use brown plastic to mold a circuit breaker case in one run and then they'll use black plastic to mold the same case in another run. The breakers made with black cases get the "marine" packaging and instruction sheet. The breakers made with brown cases get the house brand packaging and instructions and go to the hardware stores where they are sold for a much lower but more competitive price.
Yup!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 08:09 PM   #73
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging is labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants.

The "marine" packages are wholesaled and retailed for between four and ten times the amounts that the same components made by the same machines out of the same materials are sold for in the packages that don't say "marine" on them. While this is certainly not true of everything, he said, it is true of a lot more stuff than most people realize.

Another manufacturer's "trick" he told me about and showed me examples of is changing the color of the material used in the part. So they'll use brown plastic to mold a circuit breaker case in one run and then they'll use black plastic to mold the same case in another run. The breakers made with black cases get the "marine" packaging and instruction sheet. The breakers made with brown cases get the house brand packaging and instructions and go to the hardware stores where they are sold for a much lower but more competitive price.
Thus the previous comments about knowing what is "really" different or not...a little homework or questions asked is all that is needed most of the time.

This is the third large boat that I have owned that has had a standard house CB panel and CBs. Rusty steel and all.....works just fine and meets all "requirements".

Boaters have heart arracks if you use solid wire on a boat like house romex...yet it isn't illegal...just not acceptable on USCG inspected vessels. Yet there are plenty of boats out there using it. Out of all the boat fires I've seen in 2 maritme careers now...solid wire was never the cause of a boat fire that I either attended or debriefed.

As I said al lot of times...there's a big difference between "unsafe" and non-marine.

Wasn't there just a great link about non-tinned, non-marine wiring?
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 08:27 PM   #74
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,981
One item I question is SS fastner quality of home owner stores; as compared to marine grade SS.
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 08:31 PM   #75
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,915
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
One item I question is SS fastner quality of home owner stores; as compared to marine grade SS.
Unless you compare grades...no telling.
I know the stuff from box stores is inferior...not so sure the stuff from marine stores is better unless you compare aplles to apples.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2012, 08:33 PM   #76
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways.
Marin is absolutely correct on that, without any room for argument.

I purchase all my own electrical bits and pieces from the same local supplier as every yacht electrical and electronic contractor in this area and nearly every item that is not a specialty marine component such as a battery selector switch is the same as I can find at the auto parts store, Sears, Home Depot, or Radio Shack, but at much higher cost.

If I compare the same parts with West Marine's offerings, a simple nylon sheathed ring terminal for example at my source costs 10 cents. At WM, it costs 49 cents because it is "marine" and comes from a "marine" source. The same item from Radio Shack costs around 16 cents. I can tell you that if a manufacturer of ring terminals produced a superior version for the boating consumer they would have to cost a hundred dollars. That is just a simple aspect of manufacturing costs.

Retail merchants view the recreational boater the way De Beers looks at a kimberlite pipe, they don't need a lot of volume, just a steady supply of Kool-Aid drinking believers is enough to make enormous profits.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 06:28 AM   #77
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
"Unless you compare grades...no telling.
I know the stuff from box stores is inferior...not so sure the stuff from marine stores is better unless you compare aplles to apples."

The boat store is not the place to purchase fastiners if you want to know what you are getting.

A dist is the only source you can be sort of sure of.Unless its high priced aircraft , where a phoney/mislabled chinese knock off may be the source.

For Silicone bronze (far, far superior to SS underwater) a specialty shop like Jamestown would be OK.



FF
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 08:04 AM   #78
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,743
Quote:
...Boaters have heart arracks if you use solid wire on a boat like house romex...yet it isn't illegal...just not acceptable on USCG inspected vessels. Yet there are plenty of boats out there using it. Out of all the boat fires I've seen in 2 maritme careers now...solid wire was never the cause of a boat fire that I either attended or debriefed.

As I said al lot of times...there's a big difference between "unsafe" and non-marine.

Wasn't there just a great link about non-tinned, non-marine wiring?
Your right, you can use solid wire but why? How much money actually gets saved by not using wire that at least meets UL 1426, Electrical Cable for Boats?

Solid wire may not cause a fire, but it can lead to electrical gremlins with connections at breakers and/or devises over time. I think the boat owner who uses solid wire would pay for it later during a survey and/or with a prospective buyer.
Larry M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 08:41 AM   #79
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Well, there is apparently a lot of stuff that gets labeled both ways. The very experienced and long-time owner of the marine electric shop we use has told me that when it comes to things like crimp-on connectors, terminal strips, breakers and such, the stuff he sells as "marine" in packaging labeled as such is more often than not identical to the same components sold at home stores, Radio Shack, hardware stores, etc and is made by the same manufacturer. The only difference is the pre-printed sleeves that get loaded onto the packaging machines at the plants. .
If you believe this guy, fine, follow his advice. I know people who have worked in a field for thirty years or more and have been doing things "wrong" the entire time.

But, do this: Go to Radio Shack and pick up a pack of crimp connectors. Take some Ancor brand connectors with you. Now compare the two. Actually, the Radio Shack connectors are so thin and poorly made that you shouldn't even have to have the good ones to compare them to.

And, just because parts are made by the same manufacturer doesn't mean they are made the same. One day they make the good ones, the next day they make the cheap ones.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2012, 08:45 AM   #80
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
An automobile starter from the auto parts store is much less expensive than a "marine" starter. It looks the same and serves the same purpose. Would you install one on a gasoline powered boat?
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012