Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-19-2015, 12:07 PM   #41
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
From what I remember Willard took sail boat hulls they were selling and converted them to power in an attempt to expand their market.
__________________
Advertisement

bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 12:09 PM   #42
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
Coot: have you ever faced strong head seas with wave after wave stopping the boat with that set up?
__________________

bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 12:15 PM   #43
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
Every time head seas presented a problem with my boat...I had to throttle back not up to make the ride bearable...

The ONLY time I have throttled up in this boat (and usually only 200 rpm or so) was in flat water to overcome a 3 plus knot current or pass some one where passing time was critical.

If/when I repower, I would have no issue with dropping to 80 to 90hp.

But that is me and I'll have to think long and hard if that may affect resale...if I care at that point
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 12:35 PM   #44
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,291
For those who worry about fuel burn and speed I direct you to the Jan . issue of Wooden boat Magazine and an article about LDL boats. The article Motor Boats Of The Future pg 52 featuring work by Nigel Irons. What you get in an LDL boat is long skinny and low and light with the ability as a SD to go well beyond the old estimate of waterline related hull speed. So with small or modest HP one can get good sea keeping ability with great mileage and speed.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 12:43 PM   #45
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
And pay more for dockage, hauling, space issues...etc..etc.....

Plus the are few out there and no where the price of what many can afford....

There may be a few... but not many....

Low resistance boats have been around a long time..nothing new....just new marketing.

Buying what you want and running it economically is what most do...saying fuel or any other particular boating cost is a particular percentage is conditional...not universal.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 12:47 PM   #46
Veteran Member
 
City: St. Augustine, FL
Country: US
Vessel Name: Hannah Bea
Vessel Model: Tiara 4000e
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 56
If I were a wise person, I'd probably not add a comment to this thread, but my rationale is different from many here while resembling many.

My Tiara is a deep V, full planning hull that will do 31kts at wot and burn 46gph while doing so. She also haas a 14'6" beam and very stable (especially for a deep V). Is this a long range cruiser? When I throttle back to 8.6 kts (hull speed) I am burning 4.7gph combined using both engines. Our range at hull speed is 838 miles (maintaining 20% reserve). With the build quality of this boat and how she is equipped, I would not hesitate to cruise anywhere within her range, including through the Panama canal, or even further, thus making her an excellent (for us) cruising boat.

For those whose SD hulls allow 16 or so kts, you understand the "need for speed" when get home in bad weather matters. Since we are retired time is not critical for trips. What is critical is my viability and the number of years I have left to cruise comfortably. I am in my 70's and a recent cancer survivor. That is a wake up call for more speed.

Many times our purchase and life decisions are based on perceived value. This value may be different for many people, hence the proliferation of so many designs.
__________________
This opinion is worth what you paid for it :)

St. Augustine, FL
Ziggy8321 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 01:25 PM   #47
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
And pay more for dockage, hauling, space issues...etc..etc.....

Plus the are few out there and no where the price of what many can afford....

There may be a few... but not many....

Low resistance boats have been around a long time..nothing new....just new marketing.

Buying what you want and running it economically is what most do...saying fuel or any other particular boating cost is a particular percentage is conditional...not universal.

The thing I see about LDL boats is that they lend themselves to home build with stich and glue composite build. Since they are simple and light with small motors not so expensive to build or run. Yes the added length will cost more at a dock but many do a lot of cruising on the hook and the fuel savings would possibly balance out the other added costs of length. What the LDL can not do is make a good cottage on the water. On an LDL you and the admiral will know you are on a boat.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 02:16 PM   #48
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,723
Both of my favorite boats are SD so I haven't got my head in the sand and I'll admit I went overboard a bit looking for a 1gph boat. I realize now (especially now) that 2gph would be really fine.
Earlier I criticized the GB and got some pissed at me (especially Marin) by calling it a "bad design". I should have chosen other words like flawed design or a power platform that's not ideal. At any rate if the flaw was very significant I would not consider buying them and I could easily buy a 36 or 32 if moorage fees were not so high.
And I'm not sure how much the efficiency of the Willard drew me to buy one but even more important is that I think the W30 is just a really good designed boat. Do I like the plastic windows ..NO .. Do I like the steel in concrete ballast .. NO. and there are other features I'm not fond of.
Can't say I've changed my mind about the power in the GB or others like it but as a flaw it's not a big one and I appologize to any GB owners that were offended by my bad words.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 02:24 PM   #49
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,984
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Both of my favorite boats are SD so I haven't got my head in the sand and I'll admit I went overboard a bit looking for a 1gph boat. I realize now (especially now) that 2gph would be really fine.
Earlier I criticized the GB and got some pissed at me (especially Marin) by calling it a "bad design". I should have chosen other words like flawed design or a power platform that's not ideal. At any rate if the flaw was very significant I would not consider buying them and I could easily buy a 36 or 32 if moorage fees were not so high.
And I'm not sure how much the efficiency of the Willard drew me to buy one but even more important is that I think the W30 is just a really good designed boat. Do I like the plastic windows ..NO .. Do I like the steel in concrete ballast .. NO. and there are other features I'm not fond of.
Can't say I've changed my mind about the power in the GB or others like it but as a flaw it's not a big one and I appologize to any GB owners that were offended by my bad words.
Heck Eric

I wouldn't say you had bad words... just boat-luven words regarding your preferred type/design boat. We all have high praise toward our preferred boats. That's one of the many things that makes boat-luven so much fun!

Happy Boat-Luv Daze - Art

PS: How boring mariner pleasure-boat life would be if we all liked the exact same type boat!
Art is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 03:46 PM   #50
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview View Post
Coot: have you ever faced strong head seas with wave after wave stopping the boat with that set up?
Hardly noticed a speed drop; the Coot just "bullies" its way into seas, perhaps because of its heavy displacement (14 tons). If seas are heavy, I lower the throttle to reduce the quantity of spray and the boat's motion.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 04:21 PM   #51
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy8321 View Post
If I were a wise person, I'd probably not add a comment to this thread, but my rationale is different from many here while resembling many.......
Many times our purchase and life decisions are based on perceived value. This value may be different for many people, hence the proliferation of so many designs.
And opinions!! Good post and I totally understand and agree with the getting older issues!!

P.S. Never be concerned about stating your opinion on this forum. After all it's what you believe and if somebody doesn't agree. Tough tomatoes, they'll just have to get over it!!
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 04:48 PM   #52
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Marin wrote;
"Absolutely. If the boat won't sell, then it's a bad design. It's that simple."
I can't believe you (one of the smartest guys here) said that.
.

That's why I'm one of the smartest guys here.

Our (Boeing) design engineers have come up with some really cool and extremely good designs over the years that have never seen the light of day. Why? Because the airlines or the military didn't want them. To them, they were bad designs. Why? Because they didn't do what they wanted to do.

You have two major flaws in your beliefs and position. One, you assume the only good design is what YOU want, which is a glacially-slow displacement boat with very low power. You do not represent the vast majority of the power boating market. In fact, I would say you represent a very tiny fraction of the power boating market. That is easily proven by looking at what sells and what doesn't. How many Willards and Coots have been sold vs. how many Bayliners, Grand Banks, Californians, CHBs, Flemings, Sabres, Eastbays, and the list goes on.

Two, you assume that a theoretically good design is all that is needed to make a good product. You repeatedly claim that a Grand Banks, for example, is a bad boat because they didn't use the design theory you adhere to of very low power and a displacement hull. This is way, way wrong. A truly good design is one that combines the theories of what make a good, efficient design with the practicalities and realities of what make a desirable, producible design.

By focusing only on the theoretical and not the practical, your arguments have no meaning or application in the real world. Which is why most production boat builders would totally ignore your definition of good design if they were exposed to them.

I know you like theory over reality, but that makes for a very lonely position. We've had some excellent engineers here over the years who insisted on following theory and said the customers would simply have to accept what we produced. We know best, they said, because we have aerodynamic or structural or whatever theory on our side. These engineers, as smart as they were, didn't last long at this company because they refused or were incapable of understanding that customer requirements and desires and producibility trump pure theory every time. These engineers were incapable of adapting their theoretically perfect designs to the reality of producing a product the market wants.

The same is true of production boat building. If a designer or engineer cannot accept that the number one objective is to produce a boat design that the customers want and is producible to a certain cost point, but insists instead on giving priority to the theories of hull design, power to weight, etc. regardless of customer desires and production cost, that engineer will not have a very long career at that company.

You say you're surprised a "smart" person would not accept your ideas about design theory. In a career first in television producting commercials to sell products and services to a market, and then in aerospace helping to sell incredibly expensive products to a market comrpised of extremely picky customers, I can say with extreme confidence that focusing on design theory alone is not a smart approach to success. Focusing on customer requirements, production cost, serviceability and design theory is a smart approach.

And if you do that, the end product will be a very good, very smart, very successful design.

PS- My post #25 was a direct response and reinforcement to what Peter said in his post #18.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 05:56 PM   #53
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edelweiss View Post
...Reminds me of a friend years ago, who only bought cars with stick transmissions. At stop lights he turned the engine off...
Your friend`s actions are reproduced in numerous cars fitted with "stop/start" technology.
__________________
BruceK
Island Gypsy 36 Europa "Doriana"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 06:17 PM   #54
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
Your friend`s actions are reproduced in numerous cars fitted with "stop/start" technology.
Very true with modern vehicles, but dangerous and illegal with 1965 technology. You lost your power steering and brakes when you turned your engine off!!
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 06:35 PM   #55
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,996
Greetings,
Mr. mb. "...I can't believe you (one of the smartest guys here) said that..." One of the other smartest guys here agrees with Mr. Marin. Moi.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 07:01 PM   #56
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Heck Eric

I wouldn't say you had bad words... just boat-luven words regarding your preferred type/design boat. We all have high praise toward our preferred boats. That's one of the many things that makes boat-luven so much fun!

Happy Boat-Luv Daze - Art

PS: How boring mariner pleasure-boat life would be if we all liked the exact same type boat!

I guess I have a boat love problem. I like, not love, many boats of diverging types oar-paddle-sail-OB-Inboard-SD-FD-one or two motors-wood-steel-FG-Al- and composite. Since I don't love em I tend to see the good the bad and everything in-between. I can defend or diss most boats after all are they not all a bundle of compromise.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 07:15 PM   #57
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
Marin you're notion that everybody wants to plow along as fast as you is more correct than wrong but misses the mark by a mile thinking everyone's like you. But the market shows you're more right than wrong.

.
The market shows he's far more right than wrong and that's really where you miss the point, that you're in the huge minority. Most power boaters do not want to run 7 knots for many reasons and it has nothing to do with cars, it has simply to do with preference of speed on the water. You post the theoretical hp required, very informative from a technical and engineering aspect, but people don't buy based on technical data and an engineer's perspective. I've asked the question of engineers many times when they had an improvement on a product that only cost a small amount, "How are you going to market this added value?"

Personally the slowest boat we've ever owned cruises at 20 knots and WOT is 25 knots. Now we also understand on a trawler forum we're even further out of the mainstream than you are. But that's fine. We have our preferences and don't try to push them onto others. Frankly, we felt we were slowing down greatly as our last boat when we lived on the lake ran around 55 knots. Now we do occasionally run 15 knots, even 12 knots. Especially 12 at night. But 7 knots has never crossed our mind.

And I'm sure you'd have even greater issue with our ribs.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 07:17 PM   #58
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,176
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
I guess I have a boat love problem. I like, not love, many boats of diverging types oar-paddle-sail-OB-Inboard-SD-FD-one or two motors-wood-steel-FG-Al- and composite. Since I don't love em I tend to see the good the bad and everything in-between. I can defend or diss most boats after all are they not all a bundle of compromise.
We do equally, love them all. Doesn't mean we'd love to own them all, however. We have our personal preferences.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 07:22 PM   #59
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,176
Manyboats.....

First we think your boat is very very cute and unique and love it from that aspect. However, where is Willard now? The demand for such a boat just wasn't broad enough. That makes your boat even more special as not one everybody is rushing out to buy the new one of. With GB, it's just another GB. But not with Willard, it's unique and special. Built for the person who wanted to go a different route.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2015, 07:48 PM   #60
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
Most cruisers, tugboats, and ships in my home waters travel at speeds of 8 to 12 knots. Faster boats are typically recreational fishermen, ferries, Coast Guard, Sheriff, and Highway Patrol and just plain speed boats.





We enjoy life in the slow lane (six+ knots) along with the real (with net) trawlers, commercial fishermen, and sailboaters motoring.


__________________

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012