Engine oil changes: hot or cold?

[Baker]

Baker,
I had a remote filter w the new engine install but was plauged w leaks so reverted to the OEM screw on (horizontal) filter. It's at least half the size of the remote so now I change the filter every oil change instead of every third change. Thinking back I remember that bit drove Marin crazy.

All,
About my horizontal ... Once it came off dry but the last time it dumped a considerable amount of oil that I was not prepared for. If I punch a hole in the top of the filter a few minutes before will the oil drain out? Speaking of Marin he did that as I recall.

The purpose of my remote filter is not to put a bigger or better filter on. It is simply to make it more accessible in a twin engine installation. My on engine fuel filter is remote for the same reason. All filters are in the middle of my engines as are the dipsticks.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Smitty,
You punch a hole in the BOTTOM of the filter and drain and collect. I want to punch a hole in the TOP and allow air in that will allow/cause the oil in the filter to run into the crankcase where I can pump it out w the oil extractor pump installed in the boat. Then I can (hopefully) unscrew the filter and almost no oil will be left in the filter ... so no oil should come out of the filter and make mess.

 

[smitty477]

"I want to punch a hole in the TOP and allow air in that will allow/cause the oil in the filter to run into the crankcase where I can pump it out w the oil extractor pump installed in the boat."


Yes - I agree I do that as well on our last boat as we had one off each (one up and one down on each engine) filter. I would punch the upside down filter once in the center and again along the edge with the same center punch so it would drain back to the crankcase. It was much better if I then would do the fuel filters or some other planned task before I went back to these to gibe them enough time to drain completely - patience is not one of my strong points but waiting here is important so put a task in between. Perhaps I can find a picture showing these filters to make this clearer.

 

[smitty477]

 

[psneeld]

Do filters with drain back valves drain even with a hole in the top?

I was always taught that remote filters, especially that screw down should always have the anti drain back filters used.

 

[bayview]

Any plastic gallon jug with a handle is what I used. I cut open the top on the side opposite the handle so it would fit over the filter. Then hung it by the handle with a string while the oil drained.

 

[bayview]

That upside down filter looks like a mess waiting to happen. Isn't there anything on the base that could be opened to drain it?

 

[bayview]

How do two filters work? series or parallel?

 

[psneeld]

That upside down filter looks like a mess waiting to happen. Isn't there anything on the base that could be opened to drain it?

Exactly why I relocated and turned my remote filter so the filter opening faces up.

 

[smitty477]

The upside down one is a bypass filter and does have an anti-drainback valve. The filter boss has a fixture that allows oil to flow back from the filter when opened - it will drain with or without that fixture open if you wait long enough with hot oil - about 20 minutes or so.
There have been a few of these installs that converted to remote oil filters but have had issues with volume and pressure as they utilized a couple of 90 degree turns with less than full port fittings.
Changing the oil hot with this set up and a plan takes about 2 hours for both mains and the genset start to finish.
My experience is that they will drain down given some time if the punched holes are put in and you make sure you have some other task to perform in between so as not to waste time.

 

[smitty477]

"How do two filters work? series or parallel?"

A bypass filter is in parallel.

 

[ranger58sb]

Luckily, I have remote fuel and oil filters so I am not having to go to the outside of my engines to change filters.

Yeah, ours is a quandary. The remote filter on the starboard engine puts it inboard, no obstacles, easy.

The original filter location on the port engine is inboard, but awkward because of the height of the filter versus the engine mounting rails, and also because the remote coolant filter (on that engine) is in the way. Fixing that by using the remote oil filter kit... would put the whole thing outboard on the port side, which would be even worse.

<sigh>...

-Chris

 

[kchace]

Do filters with drain back valves drain even with a hole in the top?

I was always taught that remote filters, especially that screw down should always have the anti drain back filters used.

I agree they should. However, the drain back valves on any filter I have ever seen are only on the "input" side of the filter, not on the center outlet. If the filter is higher than the engine (which mine are) it can always drain "forward" through the filter media and the center hole and into the oil galleries. This is probably not the best, maybe they drain down every time I shut the engines off?

My filters are screw down. As I begin the oil change I poke a hole in the tops and by the time all else is done, they barely drip when I take them off.

Ken

 

[FF]

"My filters are screw down. As I begin the oil change I poke a hole in the tops and by the time all else is done, they barely drip when I take them off."

Good tip!!!

 

[bayview]

So that second bypass filter only works if the first gets plugged?? That must have been designed for very dirty operation or the original filter is too small.

 

[Nomad Willy]

"My filters are screw down. As I begin the oil change I poke a hole in the tops and by the time all else is done, they barely drip when I take them off."

Good tip!!!

Yes that's what I was looking for.
However re the talk of anti-drain valves to depend on one's filter to drain as per the above example one may need to get the same filter from the same source. Some may have the valve and some may not. Could they have the same number and vary re the valve?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Baker wrote;
"The purpose of my remote filter is not to put a bigger or better filter on. It is simply to make it more accessible in a twin engine installation."
Yes I see ... and I did that too. But most significant reason I went remote was to get a filter orientation that would be screw up so when I unscrewed the filter (down) oil would be contained (like a full glass of beer) .. no mess in the bilge. The extra size just came w it.

kchace Wrote;
"the drain back valves on any filter I have ever seen are only on the "input" side of the filter, not on the center outlet."
From that can I conclude that a horizontal filter should drain only part way if it had a drain back valve? That could be the case w mine.
Where are these drain valves located and can one see the valve and know if the filter has or does not have the drain back valve.

kchace also wrote;
"If the filter is higher than the engine (which mine are) it can always drain "forward" through the filter media and the center hole and into the oil galleries. This is probably not the best, maybe they drain down every time I shut the engines off?"
This I would like to know as if the oil drains back into the crankcase on shutdown every time one started up the filter would need to fill (and galleries ect) before oil pressure was realized at the engine bearings. It would be a strong indication that engine designers know that the lack of oil pressure during this time causes no harm or extra wear. That would confirm (perhaps) that the notion of serious engine wear at startup is serious business and promote pre-lubers. I've always thought if this was a problem pre-lubers would be standard equipment. Filters draining indicates that the notion of serious bearing wear occurring at startup is an "old wife's tale" and not valid.

 

[smitty477]

"So that second bypass filter only works if thefirst gets plugged?? That must have been designed for very dirty operation orthe original filter is too small."

Bypass oil filters are used in order to be able to'polish' the oil further than a normal full flow oil filter. Normal full flowfilers must maintain a volume and pressure at all times such that their filterratings need to remain relatively course for service life. With a bypass filterin parallel you are able to constantly filter well below normal limits andreduce contaminants and/or safely extend oil life.
I was attracted to these engines during the mid 90's whenworking in service in Shimodate Japan. There were 10 of these engines rackmounted on an outside wall with at least 8 running 24/7/365. They were poweringa very large factory DC electroplate line supplying between 120 and 140 hp eachfor days and weeks on end. When speaking to the techs there I learned that themean time between servicing and rebuilds was months and years while up time wasnear 98% yearly basis.
At that time I was running a 34 Silverton with twin 350'sand the thoughts of that fuel consumption and engine servicing had me dreamingof these diesels which I eventually ended up owning - and at this point in time4 sets of two engines each.

If you like you can read more about bypass filtration atmany sites including BLackstone labs here....
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/by-pass-oil-filtration.php

 

[Nomad Willy]

In the late forties and early fifties all car lube oil filtration were low flow bypass.

"Full flow" cartridge filters came later. They probably sold them on fear that some bit if dirt would sooner or later get to a bearing and ruin the engine. I was there in the early 50's and never heard of that happening. Perhaps we'd be fine w only by-pass?? Kinda like selling high tech anchors via the fear of winding up on the beach/rocks.

But smitty's employing both is the "cat's meoww".

 

[smitty477]

"But smitty's employing both is the "cat's meoww". "


Wish I could take credit for it but it was a result of a long term testing and study done within the original SPC programs at Toyota.
All I was able to do is buy the used boat with the engines in them.

 

[FF]

"Perhaps we'd be fine w only by-pass??"

My 6-71 is a 1950ish version that spent almost 50 years in a can as a war stores item.

It only has a bypass "color filter" .The oil remains very clean for about 50 hours and is only golden by change time.

This is unlike my 8V71 or now Series 50 DD or Cat 3208 which is black all the time and black in 3 min of operation after an oil change.

The black stuff is too fine for a "modern " full flow filter to catch.

A real bypass filter added to the system would be a big help,

BUT many of my oil changes are on time , not operation hours , so the saving would be in engine wear.

 

[kchace]

kchace Wrote;
"the drain back valves on any filter I have ever seen are only on the "input" side of the filter, not on the center outlet."
From that can I conclude that a horizontal filter should drain only part way if it had a drain back valve? That could be the case w mine.
Where are these drain valves located and can one see the valve and know if the filter has or does not have the drain back valve.

kchace also wrote;
"If the filter is higher than the engine (which mine are) it can always drain "forward" through the filter media and the center hole and into the oil galleries. This is probably not the best, maybe they drain down every time I shut the engines off?"
This I would like to know as if the oil drains back into the crankcase on shutdown every time one started up the filter would need to fill (and galleries ect) before oil pressure was realized at the engine bearings. It would be a strong indication that engine designers know that the lack of oil pressure during this time causes no harm or extra wear. That would confirm (perhaps) that the notion of serious engine wear at startup is serious business and promote pre-lubers. I've always thought if this was a problem pre-lubers would be standard equipment. Filters draining indicates that the notion of serious bearing wear occurring at startup is an "old wife's tale" and not valid.

Oil direction in a spin-on filter is always "into" the filter through the holes around the center hole, and filtered oil goes "out" through the center hole. The anti-drainback valve covers the input holes around the center. If you look at them and they seem covered, there is an anti-drainback valve in place. Ideally, any spin on filter would be installed with "screw up" so that it couldn't drain back helping oil pressure to come up more quickly after a cold start.

Ken

 

[Temptation]

I went to one the Yanmar engine maintenance classes at Mack Boring and they recommend "warm", i.e. run the engine for 10-15 minutes, heat the oil up a bit and then change it.

 

[Nomad Willy]

kchace,
Thanks so much for the very fine text and graphic display. One should be able to see the anti-drainback valve or diaphram through the holes outbd of center. Also one should be able to stick a tool in through the periphery holes.

Since on my last oil change the oil did'nt drain it must have the anti-drainback valve.

So there's no way I can drain the oil internally? Actually it seems I have never encountered a filter w a drainback valve as I always fill the filter w oil prior to installation. Maybe the filter # is for inverted filters that would'nt need a drainback valve. But then I only put "some" oiil in the horizontaly installed filters. But if the filter had the valve I wouldn't be able to pour any oil in .... what's the scoop?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Temptation,
I'll bet it's hot for best change and warm for safety and comfort. Recomendations from sources like that tend to be "lawyer polished".