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Old 01-05-2017, 02:03 AM   #1
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The electronic alternative to emergency Engine

if this is known here, Ocena volt electric motor and a desire to recharge your batteries?

some single engine is a small emergency diese home to help if someone fails in the engine. Ocean volt is developed sailboats electric motor propulsion that could be used as a motorboat. needs a generator, batteries or solar panel system. thought the might be good, do not need annual maintenance, such as diesel, zinc replacement might be.

http://oceanvolt.com/systems/sea-for...lls-multihulls


This video 40" sail boats

https://youtu.be/9XTM6PAGi_Q


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Old 01-05-2017, 06:21 AM   #2
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Looks like a nice get home drive for a sub 40' boat that could be tied to your generator. Wonder how long a duty cycle it has in that kind of application.

Ted
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:52 AM   #3
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Looks like a nice get home drive for a sub 40' boat that could be tied to your generator. Wonder how long a duty cycle it has in that kind of application.

Ted
I can not say more sustainability, as electric motors and saildrive is both old inventions and proven to be reliable. if these reliable individual components combine to think of this type of propulsion motor + to be good.

Also I think that this could be to involve more quickly than the wing of diesel in case of need and, above all, less technical maintenance (oil, filers, winter protection, etc.

Unfortunately, priced about the same as the diesel + Advanced transmissions wing.
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Old 01-07-2017, 06:52 AM   #4
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One challenge running any form of propulsion, whether hydraulic, electric, or other, from a generator is the general discrepancy in power requirements. The power required to generate electricity for a boat is typically much less than the power required for propulsion, even auxiliary propulsion.

For example, my boat has a 20kw generator which is arguably oversized for the boat. The engine that drives the generator is about 35hp, so if it were used as auxiliary propulsion, I would have as most a 35 hp drive engine. In contrast, my wing engine is 80hp, so over 2x the power, and even at that it only drives the boat at about 5 kts.

Now it can certainly be done, and I know a couple of people who have generator-driven get home drives that work acceptably, but you have to pay careful attention to get good results.
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Old 01-07-2017, 07:28 AM   #5
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For example, my boat has a 20kw generator which is arguably oversized for the boat. The engine that drives the generator is about 35hp, so if it were used as auxiliary propulsion, I would have as most a 35 hp drive engine. In contrast, my wing engine is 80hp, so over 2x the power, and even at that it only drives the boat at about 5 kts.

Now it can certainly be done, and I know a couple of people who have generator-driven get home drives that work acceptably, but you have to pay careful attention to get good results.

Given a large enough boat to take advantage of it...

I've often wondered if it'd be feasible to have two gensets on board, alternated (daily?) for normal house loads... and combined for get-home, or at least steerage way, loads.

-Chris
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Old 01-07-2017, 08:01 AM   #6
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If one desires, twin engines. Or the get home JD 4045 on the FPB 64 will drive the vessel at 8 knots. Ranger Tug's have a neat swim platform designed outboard arrangement.

As Baltic points out the sail drive arrangement is practical, as also exemplified by Z drives on ocean going tugs.
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Old 01-07-2017, 09:31 PM   #7
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Given a large enough boat to take advantage of it...

I've often wondered if it'd be feasible to have two gensets on board, alternated (daily?) for normal house loads... and combined for get-home, or at least steerage way, loads.

-Chris
That's exactly what one of the boat's I mentioned does. But it's 75' or so with two 20 or 25kw gensets.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:57 AM   #8
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Hi,


I found secod mark electric inboard engine 40 or 80 hp made torpedo. Trondheim electric (i think hybrid) trawler have 2 pices torpedo engines.


These take up less space than a diesel engine wing, could not be easier to install the old boats.


Electric outboards by Torqeedo
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Old 01-08-2017, 08:56 AM   #9
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Every time I look at our Deere 4045 wing engine, sitting idle, with a whopping 20hrs on it, I think there must be a better way. It seems like such a waste of a great engine, and is what brings many people to hydraulic drives powered from generators as their get-home propulsion.

But the down side of a hydraulic drive is that it uses the main engine running gear, so if your running gear has become fouled, it's of no help. That's one of the arguments for a wing engine with it's own running gear.

An alternative that has caught my attention is to keep the wing engine shaft and folding prop so you preserver redundant running gear, but replace the gear and engine with an electric or hydraulic drive motor. Then power it off dual generators. On larger boats, lots of people have dual generators, both for redundancy, and often with different power ratings for high-peak and low-peak operation.

A second generator strikes me as much more useful than the wing engine/gear, provided I have some alternate way to drive the wing prop. It does still bring up the issue of total power requirements. Two 20kw generators is about 70hp replacing an 80hp wing engine. And you need to hold back some of that power for electric generation to run the boat. I don't know how much efficiency loss there is with hydraulics, but I doubt it's better than 20%, so it's probably closer to 50hp actually available to drive the boat when all is done.
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Old 01-08-2017, 09:06 AM   #10
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Peter our boat needs about 80 hp to run at the sq root of our waterline. So taking a 40 hp saildrive unit I look at it like this.

40hp is the energy required to run 20 of my wife's hairdryers. We're a 24 volt boat so that's 1250 amps/hour. After a half hour run we'd only be a mile and a half 2 tops, from where we turned the bloody thing on. Then it would take the rest of the day to recharge our fully depleted battery bank. No thanks, I can get to the same place in half the time using 80 percent less fuel just running on one of our diesel engines. There still will be enough battery power for my wife to use her hair dryer at night and more importantly start the engine again in the morning.

D.C. motors for marine propulsion are great, but you really need lots of stored available energy and that means battery power as opposed to diesel fuel. Think nuclear power like the Russians do on the Arktika class ice breakers and you can have it all. Well not quite, keeping the reactors cool kinda limits your cruising areas.
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Old 01-08-2017, 09:52 AM   #11
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Every time I look at our Deere 4045 wing engine, sitting idle, with a whopping 20hrs on it, I think there must be a better way.
Peter, I went through the same questions and analysis a few years ago when looking at new builds. Assuming one wants get home power sufficient to move the vessel in a strong seaway, electric or hydraulic driven props came out to be a higher cost, more complicated and greater space arrangement than a small diesel wing engine.

While looking at new builds, I also looked at a 52 FD vessel that was lightly used but had no get home setup. I queried the well known builder as to the cost for an approximate 60 HP get home. The all in cost to factory install including hull penetrations and drive line was about $35K.

Another data point for your hull is the cost differential between single/get home vs twins with dual keels. On the 55s Nordhavn said about the same cost but with a fuel penalty of ??. I believe about a half a dozen were built.

So IMHO , you have the most cost effective setup for your vessel smart minds could devise. BTW, what hydraulic drive setup did Star finally end up with, if any. That is another data point.
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:10 AM   #12
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That's exactly what one of the boat's I mentioned does. But it's 75' or so with two 20 or 25kw gensets.
Useful to know.


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Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Every time I look at our Deere 4045 wing engine, sitting idle, with a whopping 20hrs on it, I think there must be a better way. It seems like such a waste of a great engine, and is what brings many people to hydraulic drives powered from generators as their get-home propulsion.

An alternative that has caught my attention is to keep the wing engine shaft and folding prop so you preserver redundant running gear, but replace the gear and engine with an electric or hydraulic drive motor. Then power it off dual generators. On larger boats, lots of people have dual generators, both for redundancy, and often with different power ratings for high-peak and low-peak operation.

A second generator strikes me as much more useful than the wing engine/gear, provided I have some alternate way to drive the wing prop.
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Peter, I went through the same questions and analysis a few years ago when looking at new builds. Assuming one wants get home power sufficient to move the vessel in a strong seaway, electric or hydraulic driven props came out to be a higher cost, more complicated and greater space arrangement than a small diesel wing engine.

Maybe turn thinking backwards on itself. If two gensets and an electric (pod?) drive isn't cost-effective... (Wouldn't have guessed that more complicated or requiring more space than a dieselwing/gear/shaft, but anyway...)

Instead of letting a perfectly good diesel wing engine sit idle, maybe it'd be a good second generator -- or instead, a higher load generator compared to a smaller one main generator. Run that engine every other day or whatever to power a generator...

??

-Chris
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Old 01-08-2017, 12:38 PM   #13
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Maybe turn thinking backwards on itself. If two gensets and an electric (pod?) drive isn't cost-effective... (Wouldn't have guessed that more complicated or requiring more space than a dieselwing/gear/shaft, but anyway...)

Instead of letting a perfectly good diesel wing engine sit idle, maybe it'd be a good second generator -- or instead, a higher load generator compared to a smaller one main generator. Run that engine every other day or whatever to power a generator...

??

-Chris
Or, and commonly done - setup the wing engine as an auxiliary primary hydraulic driver. With PTOs attached it can run thrusters, 0 speed stabilizers, lifting devices and anchor thus allowing main engine to idle you into slip or where ever. The vessels I've seen with this setup have many more than a few hours per year on the wing engine.

Or power a hydraulic motor as an auxiliary on the main shaft and skip the spare shaft and transmission. A JD 4045 like 55/60 Nordhavn's have as a wing engine would have about a 50 -60KW genset. That generator is larger than a v drive - maybe.

Lots of alternatives but at what cost and complexity is the question.
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Old 01-08-2017, 11:45 PM   #14
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I'm pretty sure Starr ended up with an ABT hydraulic drive.

All these trade-offs are a big part of the fun in boats, and the curse.

Yes, it's quite common to use the wing engine to power aux hydraulics, and most nordhavns are built that way. We included ABTs stabilization at rest in our build, and with that it made more sense to power the aux hydraulics off the generator. The down side of course is less use of the wing engine.
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:12 AM   #15
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Peter our boat needs about 80 hp to run at the sq route of our waterline. So taking a 40 hp saildrive unit I look at it like this.

40hp is the energy required to run 20 of my wife's hairdryers. We're a 24 volt boat so that's 1250 amps/hour. After a half hour run we'd only be a mile and a half 2 tops, from where we turned the bloody thing on. Then it would take the rest of the day to recharge our fully depleted battery bank. No thanks, I can get to the same place in half the time using 80 percent less fuel just running on one of our diesel engines. There still will be enough battery power for my wife to use her hair dryer at night and more importantly start the engine again in the morning.

D.C. motors for marine propulsion are great, but you really need lots of stored available energy and that means battery power as opposed to diesel fuel. Think nuclear power like the Russians do on the Arktika class ice breakers and you can have it all. Well not quite, keeping the reactors cool kinda limits your cruising areas.
I do not know what size boat you have, so electric is not necessarily suitable for you and your batteries run does not really make sense. Mine is NT37 and I 4,5kw generator and motor Oceanvolt 40 'footer boat needs up to 4kw achieve 7 knots (start the video chain) I have a generator is quite unnecessary in the boat, so there could be meaningful to use. Buying diesel wing engine should be serviced while one
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Old 01-09-2017, 05:41 PM   #16
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I could see a get-home electric driven pod make sense on some boats. Instead of 12 or 24v, wind it for 120 or 240Vdc, then it can be run through a simple rectifier with relatively light gauge cabling.

With a normal sized gennie, say 8kW on a 42', you have enough power for 10hp of propulsion. That's enough to move the boat at half hull speed. Can you make way against a heavy head wind or head sea? No. But you will be able to make way in some other direction. That should be sufficient to get the boat safely... somewhere.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:29 AM   #17
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I could see a get-home electric driven pod make sense on some boats. Instead of 12 or 24v, wind it for 120 or 240Vdc, then it can be run through a simple rectifier with relatively light gauge cabling.

Not AC??

Is there such a thing as an AC pod drive? What voltage/current do the big ships' electric pods use?

(I haven't even yet found what voltage that OceanVolt unit, linked above, uses...)

-Chris
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:58 AM   #18
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Not AC??

Is there such a thing as an AC pod drive? What voltage/current do the big ships' electric pods use?

(I haven't even yet found what voltage that OceanVolt unit, linked above, uses...)

-Chris
You could go AC, but would either need a controller or it would have massive start amps. DC motor I think is what would be easiest.

I think motor tech now favors AC using a controller to shape waveform, but at 10hp that is a pretty expensive. DC might be easier.

Regarding the volts, most motors are presently lower volts as they are designed to run on batt banks. To run directly off the gen output it probably would be easier to set up motor for higher volts. Thinking less processing would be needed.

Not sure what would be best. That's for motor engineers to figure out.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:03 AM   #19
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Not AC??

Is there such a thing as an AC pod drive? What voltage/current do the big ships' electric pods use?

(I haven't even yet found what voltage that OceanVolt unit, linked above, uses...)

-Chris
Specs say they operate on 48 volts......
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Old 01-10-2017, 03:29 PM   #20
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Ah, thanks Mike. I apparently never found that page. Did see lots of refs to battery banks and so forth; 48V, must be DC then...

-Chris
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