Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-23-2013, 10:49 PM   #161
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
It appears Fisker is near bankruptcy as their electric car dream suffered the fate of fires, recalls and owners demanding their money back. Too bad, they looked great and put in a good effort with lots of government support (money) not proving helpful enough.
__________________
Advertisement

sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 11:22 PM   #162
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,179
Another gov't supported electric pipe dream down the tubes!
__________________

__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 12:21 AM   #163
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Oh yes, all the above. In your travels Walt, did you get to what I call a bay within the bay, Bahia de Conception? It is just south of Muluge.
No, we normally made the crossing from Guaymas (San Carlos) to Loreto, then we gunkholed all the way to Cabo San Lucas, (Stopping in Puerto Escondido, La Paz, etc. Mulege (Moo-la hay) is in the northern part of the SOC & we never got that far north. We stopped once in Loreto and went to Eden, a hotel close by. My wife & I had a beautiful room with a view of the Sea but when we went out on our veranda, we were treated to a nudist volley ball game. I know that this will sound odd but after 5-10 minutes of watching that game, it wasn't such a big deal after all. (That;s my story and I'm sticking to it!)
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 11:24 AM   #164
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
My wife & I had a beautiful room with a view of the Sea but when we went out on our veranda, we were treated to a nudist volley ball game. (That;s my story and I'm sticking to it!)
So that was you up on the balcony waving wildly at us?
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 11:36 AM   #165
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
So that was you up on the balcony waving wildly at us?
Yes! We were not waving, however, it just looked like that.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 11:48 AM   #166
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,179
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
Yes! We were not waving, however, it just looked like that.
Windy day?
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 06:36 AM   #167
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,529
"with lots of government support (money) not proving helpful enough."

No amount of other peoples money can force a concept that is not ready for prime time.

IF the concept was viable , not a cent of tax-slave cash would need to be dumped on it.

Advertising concepts and literature is far easier to create than a useful product at a realistic price.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 09:01 PM   #168
Senior Member
 
SeaMoose's Avatar
 
City: Anchor Pointe, Ohio
Vessel Name: Sea Moose
Vessel Model: 1976 34' D/C Taiwanese Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtrane View Post
The key to a pure electric powered boat is modest expectations. Having owned Sunshine (our prototype DSe 12m) since we launched her in 2008, I feel I can speak with experience.
What this poster failed to mention was the 1/2 million dollar price tag...

Does anyone else remember when these same DSe's hit all the boat shows? First one I saw was in Ft. Lauderdale, $550,000 for a 30 some footer with about the same appointments as a 25 foot BayLiner.

I could cruise every day for seven, eight years on forty footer for 1/2 mil.
SeaMoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 09:39 PM   #169
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
"......as a 25 foot BayLiner", that is harsh. I haven't been aboard the DSe 12, but the reefer, induction cook top, and other systems are all high end, not Bayliner which I have been on.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 09:47 PM   #170
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Sea Moose, where can I find a "brand new" 40' trawler that can cruise for 7 or 8 years for a half million?

I assume those $550,000 electric cats at the boat show where "brand new" not used models. Last year I priced a brand new Grand Banks and very quickly realized I lacked the chips to ante up to that table.

Apples and oranges if your comparing brand new with used.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 06:55 AM   #171
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,529
"but the reefer, induction cook top, and other systems are all high end, not Bayliner which I have been on."

Bayliner does not have to Prove its "value" to deep wallet Green braggarts.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 11:59 AM   #172
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
Bayliner does not have to Prove its "value" to deep wallet Green braggarts.
WOW! That remark really hits home as I used to be one of those guys until I had the opportunity to actually cruise on a Bayliner 45. You do not have to spend a fortune for a 7-8 knot quality trawler that will do almost anything you want it to do. (Except go fast! On the other hand, that 4588 did cruise in the mid teens!)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Bayliner 4588.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	151.3 KB
ID:	18665  
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 12:30 PM   #173
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
WOW! That remark really hits home as I used to be one of those guys until I had the opportunity to actually cruise on a Bayliner 45. You do not have to spend a fortune for a 7-8 knot quality trawler that will do almost anything you want it to do. (Except go fast! On the other hand, that 4588 did cruise in the mid teens!)
Yeah, but did it have an induction cook top?

It is amazing that the only people and countries that are overly green (as opposed to sensibly green) are the "wealthy." To whit Fisker, Tesla, Biosphere, Solyandra, E10 and 15 fuel -- yada yada.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 12:41 PM   #174
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,529
Yeah, but did it have an induction cook top?

Love the concept of an induction hot plate , as seen on TV.

Has anyone operated one from a NON sine wave inverter.?

EG a chop chop cheapo?
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 01:00 PM   #175
123
Member
 
City: ---
Country: ---
Vessel Name: ---
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 379
Here a link of a dutchman who refurbished his Fjord 28 CS completely and changed over to electric propulsion.

Electric propulsion on a Fjord 28 CS, read the story

(translated with Google Translate)
123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 01:00 PM   #176
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,371
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
Love the concept of an induction hot plate , as seen on TV.

Has anyone operated one from a NON sine wave inverter.?

EG a chop chop cheapo?
Our Xantrex chop chop did not run the portable induction top. I've not tried it yet with our new Magnum PSW.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 01:53 PM   #177
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Yeah, but did it have an induction cook top?

It is amazing that the only people and countries that are overly green (as opposed to sensibly green) are the "wealthy." To whit Fisker, Tesla, Biosphere, Solyandra, E10 and 15 fuel -- yada yada.
Where does China and India fit in on this scale? Both produce for their domestic markets more zero emission vehicles than the rest of the world.

Back to the topic at hand, there are two candidates with efficient enough hulls for solar assisted diesel-electric propulsion. On a displacement hull the math is rather simple, to increase speed by a factor of 2 requires an 8 fold increase in propulsion power. Take the WOT top speed of any boat and work backwards to find the power requirements at very slow speeds.

As I mentioned, the Chris White designed Buzzard's Bay power cat is one, and Larry Graf's (of Glacier Bay fame) Aspen C90 power proa is the other. On the Aspen C90, with the addition of just 1520 watts of solar, collecting an average of 5 hours per day at full output, could travel 66 nm for a 24 hour run without using any fuel or stored electrons. With the power of its Volvo-Penta 150 hp single engine can reach 20 kt at WOT, so 10 kt will only require 18.75 hp. To keep balance, weight and trim the same, this boat could be powered by an 80 Kg Steyr turbo diesel that produces 36 hp and would push the boat at 12 kt. The 500 lbs saved in engine weight reduction would be used for lithium batteries and solar panels.

For those that have no desire to cross oceans at the stately speed of just under 3 kt, (faster in reality because you would plan your passages as us sailors, using wind and ocean currents) with 36.4 Kw-hr of storage you could run at these speeds for given distances using the Aspen C90's hull efficient design. One of these distances might suit you for your cruising, if not, fire up the diesel.

16.3 nm @ 12.5 kt
26 nm @ 10 kt
40.6 nm @ 7.8 kt
65.1 nm @ 6.25 kt
104.1 nm @ 5 kt
162.4 nm @ 3.9 kt
258.2 nm @ 3.1 kt
415.5 nm @ 2.5 kt

With the 1520 watts of solar and sunny days, it will take 5 days on the hook to return under stored electrons.

I don't know about the rest of you, but if a brand new boat that can be purchased for $250K had the above capabilities, count me in. Since the Aspen C90 nicely equipped is $200K with the much more expensive 150 hp Volvo, I don't see any problem coming in for $250K.

There is a huge difference when your beam to length ratio is 10 or 12 to 1 vs. the 2.5 or 3 to 1 of a typical trawler displacement hull.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 11:47 AM   #178
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
DSe 12m Standard Outfitting

Sea Moose:

I'm not really sure how to respond to your post? You seem to be throwing both the high-end buyers (those who pay 1/2 million for a 39' trawler) and budget buyers (those who pay $75k for a 25' Bayliner) under the bus. Both buyers have one thing in common - they want to get out on the water and have a good time - and each buys a boat suitable to their boating needs and budget. My guess is you're the same way - you found a trawler that met your needs and budget and are perfectly content with her. And you're right, with the right purchase, a knowledgeable boater, can buy a boat and cruise a lifetime for $500k. (I remember in the 60's a minimal "liveaboard" boat in the Dinner Key anchorage in Miami - it was a 20' dory with a blue tarp for a cabin - he was "cruising" for a lot less than $500k, maybe 50 bucks total!)

However, your response appears singularly uninformed - unless I am missing the attempt at humor or sarcasm? The DSe is nominally 12 meters LOA - this may be "thirty something" in your book, but to those who know the metric system, it is close to 39'6" - for all intents and purposes, a forty footer. And she's 17' wide.

Regarding "appointments" - not sure where to begin? At Island Pilot we chose to NOT have an options list - instead we included most everything a knowledgeable boater would like to have on a well-outfitted cruising yacht, and some things the buyer may not know he'd like until he actually has them. Here' a quick list of some of the standard features of the DSe (on the Bayliner website, I did NOT find ANY of these as standard, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong?):

SS anchor with windlass w/chain and rope rode
8' inflatable dinghy w/Torqeedo electric outboard motor & davit
Segway w/davit
15" Garmin touchscreen plotter w/fish finder, XM weather & GPS
18" Garmin HD radar
iCom VHF
Technautic fly-by-wire controls w/autopilot and remote
KVH HD satellite TV with DISH receiver & 3 HDTVs
Bose 3.2.1 home theater system
2 each 3.6 kW charger/pure sine wave inverters
4 each DC/DC converters
ALL LED lighting including Lopolight running lights
ALL AGM batteries (Bayliner would obviously have batteries - no mention of AGM?)
Splendide washer/dryer
Hitachi 14.5 cu.ft. refrigerator/freezer with ice maker (Bayliner has a fridge - I doubt it has ice and is the same size?)
2 each commercial induction cook tops (mentioned previously)
ALL Ultraleather upholstery
2 each Vacuflush toilets (the Bayliner does have a toilet, but specs do not mention electric, so I am guessing manual?)
2 each diesel engines (not gas)
2 each 5 kW generators
NOTE: I have left off ALL of the items directly related to the "hybrid" operation of the DSe.

My guess is either you never actually boarded the DSe at any boat shows, or if you did, found it did not meet YOUR needs and budget, so did not spend much time aboard?

The price of a NEW DSe 12m was $560k in 2008 - just under $600k in today's dollars. This was (and is) a very competitive price for a high-end, slow-speed trawler, not at all over-priced, as others have confirmed on this site. For example, a new, non-optioned, Nordic Tug 39' is listed on YachtWorld.com for $589k.

I am of the understanding that the goal of this forum is to trade ideas and knowledge - not to trade barbs? I love the idea of sharing my experience in the hybrid arena with those who actually wish to learn something about this emerging technology. There are many reasons for us boaters to be more "green." We, more than many, are out in the environment for our main recreation, boating!

The attached video was featured on Discovery Channel's HD Theater.
Attached Files
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 12:29 PM   #179
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
Forgot to add:

5 zones of reverse cycle air conditioning.
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 01:05 PM   #180
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
The boating industry is very conservative. When visionaries like Bill Lapworth and Bill Lee first came on the scene most everyone thought their designs were unsafe and unproven. I bought a Bill Lapworth designed Cal 40 that at the time was almost 20 years old. On a solo cruise (buddy boating with others) from Long Beach to Muluge I out distanced the more conventional boats that upon reaching Cabo I had to wait 4 to 5 days for these boats to catch up. Since my almost 20 year old Cal 40 was new to me, my ego was really pumped up, as I had bought an old boat that was that much faster than new offerings. My ego was deflated in the Sea of Cortez when I did some day sailing with a family on their Santa Cruz 50, a Bill Lee design. It was faster on all points of sail.

This conservative nature in boat design dictated by the buyers is why in the multihull arena we in the States are so far behind SA, France, and Australia. This conservative nature spills over to not only hull design but means of propulsion. I have no doubt that when I'm able to cruise full time again, diesel will be $8~$10 per gallon. I have come across vessel usage statistics that prove the newer designs are used more per year than the conventional designs.

For the boater that is still a working stiff, whereas his time is limited, a design like the Buzzard's Bay is getting more usage for many reasons. First, sea state is no longer a limiting factor (within reason). On a day with 3' chop that creates a lot of pounding and motion where conventional designs would stay in port, a knife edged displacement cat will cruise at high speed in comfort, so added days of usage. Expanded weekend cruising grounds are another reason for more user usage. If you take Friday off to get to your destination anchorage and return on Sunday, your range at 8~10 kt would be 80 to 100 nm at best with a conventional design but could easily triple that with a boat like the Buzzard's Bay.

What Reuben has designed is so far ahead of its time in the mind's of the conservative boating public, it will fuel the nay sayers. But if you want to cruise far and wide in your retirement, don't want the hassles of a sailboat, and don't want to budget $50K per year in fuel, his design and others that are doing the same with advanced propulsion will be your ticket for cruising independence.

When will we learn that the sun provides all the energy we need to live a modern life, and at a slow, relaxed pace, will push our marine homes to all the destinations we dream of?
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012