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Old 04-30-2013, 03:52 PM   #241
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Bob,

I was actually hoping you would crunch numbers - I did a quick internet search - found out that 1 GPH in a diesel = 18 HP hours - since I was burning 1.2 GPH this becomes 21.6 HP hours. I was getting the same speed under the same conditions using 8.5 kW or 11.3 HP. Seems working backwards, there are inefficiencies in the internal combustion motor vs. the electric? The diesel burned twice the fuel than HP alone dictated for the same, 5 knot, performance. Obviously, there was the exact same amount of HP being delivered to the shaft, whether from diesel or electric.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:54 PM   #242
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THD,

If the 57' hull required 175 hp for 7~9 kt, no argument from me, it isn't a candidate for electric propulsion due to weight and drag of the chosen hull. What I'm looking at is modern hulls designed for efficiency and lightness. A hull I've taken the time to crunch the numbers on is the Aspen C90. To run at a speed of 7.8 kt would require 9.4 hp or 6994 watts. To increase speed by a factor of 2 requires an 8 fold increase in power. So even though 7.8 kt would be fine for a diesel powered trawler, if you could accept a cruise speed of 5 kt, the power needed for this speed would drop to 2.3 hp or 1748 watts on this efficient hull.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:25 PM   #243
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Reuben,

You got that post in while I was typing a reply for THD. I have found that fuel burn is hard to convert to hp when it is propulsion forces that we are really interested in. Have you noticed Torqeedo's spec sheets relating their 4 Kw input motor as having the same propulsion power of a 9.9 hp gasoline outboard? Torque as you know is a measurement of twisting forces, whereas hp, like wattage, is a measurement of work done. The efficiencies of a diesel is all over the map in regards to rpm. Volumetric efficiency is confined to a very narrow rpm, that rpm is the torque peak and generally occurs at around 1/2 of rated rpm for peak hp. None of this applies to an electric motor because of its ability to serve up peak torque at almost any rpm.

If you over pitch a prop for an ICE, you will not be able to reach rated rpm. If you over pitch an electric, if the controller will allow, it will ramp up the amps to reach the rated rpm. On a electric motor, rpm is a direct function of voltage. A hp rating for a electric motor comes as cont. and thermal time restricted. Many motors that I have used would have ratings such as 180 amps DC input cont and 600 amps for 1 minute. Shorten the time from 1 minute (as you would not need 1 minute for a 1/4 mile drag race) and you can use huge currents up to the point of destroying commutators or brushes, even shearing the shaft key. For boating all this is mute, we just need our cont rating that can be raised by water cooling.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:33 AM   #244
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Bob,

Spent some time this morning thinking of your requirements - my original idea for the long skinny monohull with retractable amas is NOT an ocean-going concept (unless you count being tucked into a 40' container on a very large ship, ocean-going). So I decided to build on the concept, keeping the length at 12m but making her 4.5m wide (about 14'9" - which should still fit many slips).

Add to this increased freeboard and 24" clearance under the bridge decks and it could be made for ocean crossings.

There's a Fiat-based parallel hybrid, 1,300 cc common-rail diesel available at 110 HP. It's small and light weight.

Quick calcs show about 5 knots with 4 kW of electric - and 12-15 knots at 75 HP. Range under diesel would be dependent on capacity, but perhaps the length of the state of Florida at speed and who-knows going slow?

The trick would still to build her light and simple to keep weight down - but one is tempted with the expanded beam to load her down. She is NOT trailerable nor containerizable.

Over 5 kW of Solar using inexpensive panels (under $1/watt). Battery capacity perhaps 700 AH at 48 v?

Here's the quick profile I sketched this morning.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:14 PM   #245
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Reuben,

There is a conversation going on here Powercat trawlers vs traditional Trawlers that has me sympathetic to all you naval designers that think outside the box for functionality and efficiency. I knew the pleasure maritime industry was conservative, but had no idea how much folks want their boats to look a certain way. I guess if you have the luxury of being just a weekend warrior, you can give up on functionality and efficiency for the right look, but if your a full time cruiser, you would be foolish to insist on looks or function.

I feel for you and other designers having to deal with this mind set, it must drive you nuts.

Can you give a link to the Fiat-based parallel hybrid?
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:40 PM   #246
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I feel for you and other designers having to deal with this mind set, it must drive you nuts.
There's a difference between mind set & defining a market. If you are endeavoring to go into business for the purpose of making money (profit) I suggest that you know the difference between the two. People with a mind set, do so for their own self aggrandizement. People who seek to make a profit in a business (any business) research their chosen market & that dictates their approach to said market. (Not their own fantasies.)

I'm sorry that you feel a few of us suffer from a mind set. It's interesting to me that although you didn't single anyone out by name, the inference was crystal clear as to the group you are really targeting your comments to. A group, BTW, that has done very well in their financial lives. (Which is the goal in selling boats!)
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:11 PM   #247
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FNM U.S. Distributor: Hybrid Solutions
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:17 PM   #248
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Walt,

I apologize for any negative comments but I have spoken to many naval designers that have voiced their frustration with market forces. My thesis was on minimum wetted surface vessels and way back then it was only fast ferries. The needs that drive that market back then was speed, passenger comfort, and reduced fuel burn. This was at the very beginning of fast catamaran ferries, now common place throughout Europe, SA, NZ, Japan and Australia.

All I am doing is echoing the sentiments of naval architects that would like to pen advanced designs, but for the masses in pleasure boating is not desired over a certain look. Folks that full time cruise are a small minority, but would surely adopt advanced designs if it made full time cruising more effortless, efficient, and suited their needs. This group (as small as it is) is the reason Chris White's boats are in such high demand among the die hard blue water cruisers.

There are of course many more world wide cruisers sailing than motoring. Steve Dashew started as a sailboat cruiser and after many years on his designed long and narrow beam sailboats has now switched to powerboats. His FPB line addresses that very small market of world wide motor cruisers.

I agree, market forces drive the designs that are successful, it is just too bad the typical market are folks that use their boats less than 1000 nm per year and/or 25 days out of each year.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:24 PM   #249
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FNM U.S. Distributor: Hybrid Solutions
Thanks Reuben, that hybrid is new to me. You must have had some contact with them because from their website I'm not finding the info I want, like weight. I could tell from the pictures of their smallest offering that due to turbocharging it is going to be light for its hp output. Any other info you have on this hybrid system or others. I would appreciate the links.

I have looked all over that site and can not find a 1300 cc engine with 110 hp output.

Here is my list of links that you are welcome to,
http://tbuckets.lefora.com/2012/03/1...on-of-systems/
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:36 AM   #250
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Fischer Panda "Electric Cruising Experience"

For those of you travelling or living in or near the Netherlands, Fischer Panda is hosting an event with 7 (count them, seven) electric-powered boats. This company is investing significantly on the prospect of e-boating now and in the future.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:19 PM   #251
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By request, the nudism / naturalism topic has been split into off topic.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:33 PM   #252
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Reuben,

I think there are many more international members on the Cruiser's Forum that could make the FP event. Drop a link here Jumping Ship to Power? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:45 PM   #253
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In short, the conclusion is that if fuel efficiency or substantial fuel saving is the goal, that goal cannot be met to any significant degree in current full displacement hull designs.

Be careful jumping to conculsions like that ...

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Old 05-07-2013, 04:09 PM   #254
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Be careful jumping to conculsions like that ...

Viking Lady
Payback in 2 years by the fuel savings, that is good.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:44 PM   #255
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This thread is fascinating to follow. It's great to see research into systems that really work and can have a positive impact rather than a negative one.

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Old 05-07-2013, 04:52 PM   #256
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Dave,

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread. My hopes are to return to full time cruising, but without the sails or diesel in the near future.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:55 AM   #257
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My hopes are to return to full time cruising, but without the sails or diesel in the near future.

Oars are fairly efficient and if 2- 3 miles an hour is the goal, 15 miles a day should be possible with a Cheese burger .

For a displacement boat 2 hp per ton remains , and sadly at low speeds wetted surface is king , so a ball shaped boat would have the least wetted area.

And folks like Bayliner have refined the Ball boat to a high degree in small sizes.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:13 AM   #258
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My hopes are to return to full time cruising, but without the sails or diesel in the near future.

Oars are fairly efficient and if 2- 3 miles an hour is the goal, 15 miles a day should be possible with a Cheese burger . On my Phil Bolger designed "Black Skimmer," I made myself a Chinese Yulough (sp?) - essentially an asymmetrical sculling oar to replace my SeaGull - once in a calm sculled back to Coconut Grove from Fowey Rocks of Key Biscayne.

For a displacement boat 2 hp per ton remains , and sadly at low speeds wetted surface is king , so a ball shaped boat would have the least wetted area. This is why I feel long, narrow hulls with a semi-circular section below the waterline makes sense. And since there is no stability to this kind of section, either two of them as on Sunshine or one main one on center with two smaller ones outboard could be the better solution. I am currently leaning toward the latter since it requires only one set of machinery for propulsion.

And folks like Bayliner have refined the Ball boat to a high degree in small sizes.
So at about 4 tons, you're suggesting about 8 HP? This is 6 kW which can be run at full power for 5 hours with at 30 kW/hour battery - about 600 Amps at 48 volts. This is not a tremendous expense for a propulsion package at today's price of LiFePo cells and electric motors. Add about $4,000 for a 4 kW solar array and you're done buying fuel.
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:58 AM   #259
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For those of you travelling or living in or near the Netherlands, Fischer Panda is hosting an event with 7 (count them, seven) electric-powered boats. This company is investing significantly on the prospect of e-boating now and in the future.
Darn, missed this by two days! We are in Leiden now.

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Old 05-10-2013, 03:05 AM   #260
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RickB-I was speaking about a diesel-electric hybrid, the Viking Lady is using an LNG fuel cell-electric system, quite a difference. In a diesel-electric system the only source of fuel savings is from expected efficiency increases by operating the diesel at a near constant RPM in its most efficient range driving only the load of the generator armature as opposed to the variable range driving the full load of the boat moving through water. In many installations done and tested, the actual fuel savings only amount to 5-8%.

The LNG fuel cell is pretty interesting even given the issues surrounding maintaining NG in its liquid form (-260 degrees F) among other things. An LNG fuel cell converts about 70% of the energy in the gas to electricity as opposed to 40 to about 53% in a diesel. And, it does that with virtually no moving parts. Again, as with anything that generates electricity, the ultimate challenge is, and will be for a while, efficient storage of mass amounts of electricity.

It could be that in the relatively near future we will find an LNG pump next to the good ole diesel!
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