Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-29-2013, 06:33 AM   #221
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
"Upwind without tacking, modest propulsion speed without fuel usage, "

No chance , a boat that "cruises at 3K in very still water will hardly go "up wind" at ALL!

Contemplate the speed of advance in a 20K-30K sailing breeze with 4-5 ft short waves!!!
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 08:50 AM   #222
Veteran Member
 
Ebaugh's Avatar
 
City: Panama
Country: Florida
Vessel Name: Mar Azul
Vessel Model: DeFever 44
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
An interesting thread. Converting my house bank from golf carts to LiFePO4, I have become a fan of the EV movement. I have also sort of toyed with the idea I might be able to covert my boat to a diesel electric hybrid. But I'm doubtful it could be cost justified. At least yet.

Solar could potentially essentially eliminate my generator run time for running the "hotel", but it's not going to solve the propulsion problem on long runs. The hope would be in places like the BVI or the San Blas, you could store enough energy over several days for 2-4 hour hops between islands on the batteries alone.

In the last 2 years, we've travelled from Florida through the Eastern Caribbean to Grenada, then west via the ABCs and Colombia, then the Western Caribbean to Honduras. At the 2 year point, we have spent $15,601 on fuel. This includes 2130 generator hours, dinghy fuel and propulsion fuel for the trip to date with fuel averaging just under $5 a gallon. Call it $8000 a year and represents just 13% of our cruising budget. We do operate at 5.5 to 6 knots to conserve fuel and average at least 2 NM/Gal.

So let's assume for some reason my 6000 hour Lehman's need to be replaced. New ones are probably around $25K each installed. So that's 50K. The battery bank alone for my design thoughts would be 50K. Then you need to add the motors, controllers and at least one hefty genset. That's at least another 50K, probably more with the engineering changes to make it all work. So we are up to probably a minimum of $100K for the conversion, probably an optimistic assumption. Then add in 10K for a solar system. So it's 50K for diesel propulsion, 110K for a hybrid with a 60K differential.

This could potentially shave 50% off my $8000 annual fuel costs. But at $4000 in savings a year, it's gonna take 15 years to break even, perhaps a little less as diesel fuel continues to rise in price.

Anyone see any flaws with this analysis?

I think the clean sheet designs are probably a more practical solution. But they have to compete not only with other new boats, but the used market where 150-250K can get you a lot of boat.

But the fundamental flaw is a guy buying a new boat has the money where in his budget, fuel will be less than my 13% of total expenditures, maybe only 7-8%. Or OK 13% if he wants to do 8-9 KTS. So you have to compete on all fronts, fuel is just not a deal maker by itself. And a budget minded fellow is going to buy used and do something like I did, or heavens forbid, buy a sailboat.
__________________

Ebaugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 09:07 AM   #223
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
New DSe 12m w/Amas

Bob,

Current plans are to tow the model (once the original DSe has new parts installed for e-drive) and get the resistance data for speeds up to 15 knots. Once the HP/Speed curve is calculated, then I'll have a better idea as to projected speeds and efficiency. If we expect to meet our goals, then we'll consider a full-size prototype.

We never conceived this new version as ocean-crossing-capable - but perhaps there would be interest should we choose to go that route. Means some serious rethinking. Right now, she is essentially a glorified pontoon boat with relatively low freeboard - soft sides above waist level - walk around side decks between the amas and the main hull that are fairly close to the water.

Most likely, we could make her ocean capable - since the walk arounds fold up for trailering/shipping - one could flip them up in heavier weather, allowing seas to pass by unrestricted. Likewise, the soft sides could be replaced with hard - more work getting her ready to trailer/ship, but structurally more sound. The canopy is 100% PV glued to a framework and acting as the roof.

The idea of using HDPE may not be viable either - weight could be the issue - a bit of a "pipe" dream (pun intended). Perhaps cold molded or foam-cored - if we were to leave behind the HDPE concept, then we can reshape the entry and exit to the hull (and amas) since we will not be using flat sheets in conical sections. This would make her a bit more slippery, too.

Here's a couple of photos of the model.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSe_HDPE_ModelFrames.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	136.7 KB
ID:	18789   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSe_HDPE_Model_Sheathed.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	115.9 KB
ID:	18790   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSe_HDPE_ModelTowing.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	191.9 KB
ID:	18791  
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 11:54 AM   #224
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
So let's assume for some reason my 6000 hour Lehman's need to be replaced. New ones are probably around $25K each installed.

A different brand , a truck take out like an International DT 360 or 466 would be about $3,K has SAE bellhousing to match up easily, and mechanical or electric injection is your choice. Water cooled exhaust manifold if you want woulssadd about $2k as they are fairly custom.

Its still vastly oversized for slow cruising , but the price is right , and the construction/longevity worlds away from the Ford econo Power.

DIY a pair and save almost $40K , thats a lot of diesel!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 12:45 PM   #225
Veteran Member
 
Ebaugh's Avatar
 
City: Panama
Country: Florida
Vessel Name: Mar Azul
Vessel Model: DeFever 44
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
So let's assume for some reason my 6000 hour Lehman's need to be replaced. New ones are probably around $25K each installed.

A different brand , a truck take out like an International DT 360 or 466 would be about $3,K has SAE bellhousing to match up easily, and mechanical or electric injection is your choice. Water cooled exhaust manifold if you want woulssadd about $2k as they are fairly custom.

Its still vastly oversized for slow cruising , but the price is right , and the construction/longevity worlds away from the Ford econo Power.

DIY a pair and save almost $40K , thats a lot of diesel!
The Lehman engines are close to 15K I think? I allowed extra for the installation since I don't have all the cranes and so forth to do it myself. Except for the genset, I think the electric power train would be light enough in pieces to move around?

I would also consider a remanufactured Cummins 6BT normally aspirated, but I have no idea the cost of those. The manifolds are available. No way to do a dry exhaust without a major project.

But Econo Power or not, my engines I think we're made in 1982 and sat around awhile before install. Still running well over 30 years later. Not too bad?
Ebaugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 06:37 PM   #226
123
Member
 
City: ---
Country: ---
Vessel Name: ---
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 379
Mastervolt won the inovation price 2013 in The Netherlands with their Water cooled Drive Master Ultimate. They have a line of products from 2.5 kW to 100 kW.

Mastervolt/Bell Marine
Attached Images
  
123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 06:54 PM   #227
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Aboard the drilling rig "Paul Wolff" operating off the coast from Macae, Brazil, drilling for Petrobras we used an ROV that employed a 100 hp electric motor. Aboard the drill rig we had a lot of typical 480 VAC, 100 hp motors that weighed 800 lbs and were 34" X 22" but air cooled. The ROV's 100 hp motor was about 12" by 6" and because it was both water cooled and fed 6000 volts, weighed about 80 lbs.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 07:09 PM   #228
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
the MotorCat 30 is another very high efficiency hull, I had fun crunching its low speed power consumption numbers because since it is set up for outboards already, the conversion is simple with the AquaWatt outboards. http://www.all4solar.com.au/AW_BROCHURE_EN_2012.pdf
Whoa! I didn't know about that outboard. What would the outboard system for that weigh? Even though the outboard would fall right on to it, the open hulls of the Motorcat 30 on the inside (just optional bunks thrown into the space) would be nice for a straight-through transom motor like the Mastervolt. Inboards on these things have been talked about and last time I checked, were available as an option. Frankly, I think the boat would be pretty noisy with inboards, but electric......ah!

Craig...I'm with you on your semi-green attitude. I just want silence, but silence in the creeks and bays of the gunk holes that are far too shallow for sail.
healhustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 07:58 PM   #229
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Craig...I'm with you on your semi-green attitude. I just want silence, but silence in the creeks and bays of the gunk holes that are far too shallow for sail.
Finally, someone who "get's" what I'm after.

That's precisely why I started the thread to study the feasibility of applying some of this gee-whiz electric technology to my Owens a couple weeks ago.

I will have an electric boat to gunk hole the Delta in eventually but it won't be my Owens.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 09:25 PM   #230
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Whoa! I didn't know about that outboard. What would the outboard system for that weigh? Even though the outboard would fall right on to it, the open hulls of the Motorcat 30 on the inside (just optional bunks thrown into the space) would be nice for a straight-through transom motor like the Mastervolt. Inboards on these things have been talked about and last time I checked, were available as an option. Frankly, I think the boat would be pretty noisy with inboards, but electric......ah!

Craig...I'm with you on your semi-green attitude. I just want silence, but silence in the creeks and bays of the gunk holes that are far too shallow for sail.
Yep, standard offering is a pair of 50 hp gasoline outboards. That is why I gave the link for the Aussie built AquaWatt electric outboards. Nice thing about outboards, no thru hull fittings and can be power tilted right out of the water for reduced drag when running on one motor, or beaching, plus less crud will grow on the lower units.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 10:58 PM   #231
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,097
I'm also considering going electric when the old raw water cooled Volv0 finally gives up on me. Hopefully I'll get a few more years out of her and the price of batteries will come down a bit. Meanwhile I'm getting great info out of threads like this. Thanks guys.

I see a number of advantages to going electric;
1. Silence - It is golden. The old Volvo is fairly rattley and I wont miss the noise at all.
2. No fumes. With the wind on the stern, often there's enough exhaust fumes to make those prone to seasickness feel a bit queasy.
3. Maintenance. My engine is only accessible from above, and I currently spend far too much time with the blood rushing to my head and my butt in the air.
4. No fuel issues. No air in the system, No filters. My stainless steel tanks are 30 yrs old and I expect are also near the end of their life.
5. I also like to align my actions with my morals. I like to think I respect this planet, but sending a cloud of blue smoke up when I start the engine on a cold day doesn't make me feel good.
6. Fuel costs are the least of my concerns as I don't plan on any circumnavigations in my boat. Still - I am expecting a substantial jump in fuel costs over the rest of my lifetime. $20/gallon wouldn't surprise me. (I've spent over 30 yrs in oil exploration and have a fair idea whats left to burn)

Looking at those Aquavolt inboards - they appear to be a good match for my boat. (35hp peak compared to my 36hp Volvo). I'm wondering about their prop size recomendations though. They suggest a 12-14" prop (max 2500rpm), whereas I currently run a 17" x15 pitch (max 3000rpm). Something doesn't add up there.

I am glad to see more options like this every year. Not for everyone - but like all (most) boats, it matches the wants and needs for a percentage of us.

BTW- heres another link to an electric motor/sail hybrid with a twist.
solarsailor.com/
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2013, 11:19 PM   #232
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
AusCan,

Is your present diesel running through a reduction transmission? Might explain the different pitch recommendations. My choice is always to run the largest diameter and deepest pitch if I'm using a reduction transmission, and just choose the gearing to allow full rpm from the engine without over revving. A large slow turning prop has less slip and is more efficient. My prop rpm direct drive on the ships I served on was 113 rpm at full ahead sea speed.

An advantage you didn't mention is all available torque at 1 rpm with a smooth and linear transition from forward to astern. No more clunking in and out of gear for docking.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 06:41 AM   #233
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
but silence in the creeks and bays of the gunk holes that are far too shallow for sail.

Google "Centerboard"
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 07:18 AM   #234
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,097
Bob- Your right. I've got a 1.5:1 reduction box. It's me that's not adding up.


Fred - My boat has a full length keel with a 38 inch draft so I'm not overly limited in access. The gaff rig allows a shallower keel, by keeping the centre of force lower.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 08:24 AM   #235
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
but silence in the creeks and bays of the gunk holes that are far too shallow for sail.

Google "Centerboard"
Tacking in a slough might be your idea of fun but not mine. Try doing it on a windless day and let us know how far you get.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 09:32 AM   #236
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
An outboard can be the simplest, most economical e solution. I am planing on testing a pair of 4kw Torqeedos on Sunshine one day.

However, for a slow speed boat, those small props are not at all efficient. Especially a heavy slow boat.

I like the idea of steerable pods. Prop and motor turn at the same slow RPM - nothing lost to gear boxes.

If your boat has inboard running gear, then a slow motor coupled directly to the shaft once the old inboard has been delegated to mooring duty.

If you boat has a sail drive you have two options short of tearing it out. 1) use a higher speed motor (less money) and keep the gear box. 2) remove the gearbox and mount the motor vertically with direct coupling to the sail drive shaft.

Sunshine can cruise at 5 knots using a total of
8.5 kW. This is less than 12 HP. And, we are going through an old technology ZF gear box and sail drive. I'm sure we are losing no less than 15% because of the drive train.

The same 5 knots on Sunshine burns 1.2 GPH total at 1,250 RPM. One of you diesel whizzes can calculate that into HP?

In other words, don't try to replace your 30 HP diesel with a 30 HP e motor. Cost and battery will be unreasonably expensive.

I am glad to see that many are confirming that e power is not only an economic issue but quality of life aboard. The silence is overwhelming. Plus, I love all the stares I get when I roam into a "no internal combustion motor" area in Pennecamp with my 39'6" "thirty-something" Sunshine!
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 12:13 PM   #237
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Reuben,
Torqeedo does offer (3) different pitch props, v8, v30, and the standard v19. Because these props were designed for electric, they do not give the pitch in inches, but the v number represents full rpm speed in kmph, so just divide the v number by 1.64 and then divide the result by 1.15 and you will have the speed at full rpm in kt.

Standard v19= 10.1 kt
High speed v30= 15.9 kt
High torque v8= 4.2 kt I would think this prop would push Sunshine at the motor's full rpm, thus 4.2 kt.

As to crunching the hp numbers of 5 kt at 1.2 gph and 1,250 rpm, you already did with the input power of 8.5 Kw in the preceding paragraph.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 12:31 PM   #238
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
but silence in the creeks and bays of the gunk holes that are far too shallow for sail.

Google "Centerboard"
That sounds like a reasonable solution, but at least for the majority of the silent cruising we're talking about, overhead clearance in a canopy of green can be an issue on the inland rivers we love, while at the same time, deck height above the water is preferable to see obstacles and underwater growth.

We have a good, shallow, easy to push platform in the Manatee to do this. Even an electric kicker outboard of 20 hp may do the trick
healhustler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 12:45 PM   #239
Member
 
City: Hudson, Wisconsin
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtrane View Post
I like the idea of steerable pods. Prop and motor turn at the same slow RPM - nothing lost to gear boxes.
Not sure if these guys have improved their motors but it looks like an affordable system for pods....
re-e-power.com : about us
DAVE C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 02:18 PM   #240
THD
Guru
 
City: Seattle
Country: US
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,142
I have posted before on diesel/electric hybrids. I spent a lot of time with a boat designer, several marine electrical systems engineers and some engineers from Siemens looking at the effectiveness/efficiency of a hybrid system. In short, the conclusion is that if fuel efficiency or substantial fuel saving is the goal, that goal cannot be met to any significant degree in current full displacement hull designs. The reason really breaks down quite simply. It takes a specific amount of energy to move any given hull at a given speed. That amount of energy is fixed for that hull, it cannot be made variable. The source of that energy is immaterial. For instance, we designed a 57' hull that could operate efficiently at 7-9 knots using about 175 HP. We calculated that house loads, including AC, would require a 20kw generator. Wrapping all that together, in a single engine (driving 2 shafts) installation, 145KW was required which called for using a 6 cyl, 228 HP Lugger. That setup produces 145KW, 60hz at 1800 RPM. The entire system was designed as Rueben earlier described, completely isolated, run entirely through inverters. There were a few benefits to this system, chief among them, a single diesel, rather than three (2 propulsion, I genny), although we looked a second smaller diesel as a backup, ability to place the engine anywhere (decreasing mechanical space and increasing living space substantially), ability to place the engine in its own sound box to almost eliminate engine noise. There were some fuel savings by virtue of having a single larger diesel running at a constant speed rather than 2 smaller one, but in general. the savings penciled to less than 10%.

As far as using the boat on electric power alone, for that hull, we could not calculate more than about 45-60 minutes under electric power with a very substantial battery bank (I don't remember the exact AH).

This is the main reason the hybrids, especially conversions, are not cost effective and I don't see them becoming effective. The saving are not substantial enough for builders to build many new hybrid systems although there are a few on the market.

I agree the future will bring eboats, but they will be designed from a white sheet of paper as Reuben is doing and they will find a market that will start very small (as does every new idea) and will gain acceptance over time as solar technology improves, as storage capacity and efficiency improves and as buyers become more accustomed to having the option.
__________________

THD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012