Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-28-2013, 12:27 PM   #201
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,178
Our boat needs will evolve as our desires do. I think it has been well expressed here that all boats are compromises, and it sounds as if most of us on this forum are happily compromising on their "ideal" boat. I know that if I plopped down a half-million bucks for the ultimate electric trawler, I'd still have a boat with compromises. As Reuben intimated, anytime I can plop down half as much to have a boat with compromises is a much more attractive deal, but as long as there is an ample supply of compromised boats costing a quarter or an eighth as much, boaters are likely to lean toward those choices. My desire to have an electric option on my boat is something I want to do, period. Yes, I want to be practical, yes I want to be independent, yes I want to be green and economic minded and all that, but none of those things have much to do with the extreme pleasure I would obtain from cruising silently, unobtrusively in nature. and that's why I'm interested in the technology.
__________________
Advertisement

healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 12:45 PM   #202
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
healhustler, thanks again for introducing me to the Aspen boat. It is my belief that most the forum members are pleasure boaters, not full time cruisers, and as such probably use their boats for about 4 weeks per year and are still working. For this majority group, diesel is the way to go because fuel costs represent such a small fraction of overall costs. This is why I think Reuben should be trolling the waters of the Cruiser's Forum where most the members are or aspired to be, full time cruisers. A full time cruiser will be much more interested in diesel-solar-electric propulsion than the weekend warrior.
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 01:11 PM   #203
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
Sun chaser makes some good points. Electric drive motors have been used for decades in the mining business. Sine an electric motor has essentially one moving part and needs virtually no maintenance,they tend to have a long life. The same would hold true for a propulsion motor - long life with little or no maintenance. Actually, solar panels are the same. Install and forget - they keep producing electricity effortlessly for years on end. He agrees that he'd even have solar the roof for battery charging - something we like, too.

Interestingly, there is more obsolescence with internal combustion motors and propulsion these days than with electric motors and solar panels. Ten years ago you'd be hard pressed to find a cruising boat with dual-prop, steerable pods and common-rail computer controlled injection. These innovations have taken over the faster, mid-sized cruising boats. My guess is that an electric motor and solar installed today will still be effective and efficient ten years from now. I would wager that diesels will make more significant advances in efficiency in the next decade.

What I feel is missing in this discussion is the possibility adopting some new hybrid technology that dies NOT replace your reliable diesel(s) - this could be applicable to both retrofitting and new construction. Rather than reinventing the wheel, just making it a bit more efficient and user-friendly?

1. Modern diesel(s) that is(are) efficient, smooth, quiet and minimal polluting.
2. Parallel hybrid motor/generator. This eliminates the need for an auxiliary generator. Note: if you already have a modern diesel, you may be able to retrofit a hybrid solution.
3. Enough LiFePo battery to satisfy your overnight on the hook needs.
4. Enough inverter to satisfy your 120/240 VAC needs 24/7.
5. Some PV on the roof to keep the battery charged.
6. Big battery charger to satisfy your electrical needs at the dock.
7. Option - small wind to aid in battery charging.
8. Option - small DC generator for longer times on the hook.
9. Option - energy efficient lighting & appliances

What does this offer the owner?

1. Some limited E propulsion for maneuvering and cocktail/dinner cruising - silently.
2. Nights on the hook without any generator running.
3. No black smoke when you put the hammer down.
4. No generator to maintain. You charge your battery when running under diesel power.
5. Really good AC power and no changeover when leaving the dock. This system is ALWAYS supplying perfectly massaged AC power from the inverter, whether plugged in to the grid or away from the dock. Regardless of voltage drops at the end of the dock or off-hertz current, your power will be isolated and perfect. Even plug into 220v/50 hz without adapters.
6. Without changing your lifestyle one bit, you will actually be using less fossil fuel since at least some of your power is solar, wind or grid generated.
7. Diesel performance is unaffected - you will burn a bit more fuel as you charge your battery, but less than a stand alone generator would. And, if you opt for a DC variable speed generator, you are still using less fuel.

If you're already planning on dumping you old diesel and generator, this could be a viable option. Ditto, if you're planning a new build. The intangible benefit of no-generator anchoring can be worth the price of admission alone.

This technology is not that of iPhones or laptops. As sun chaser mentions, it's been used for decades in the mining industry - my guess is they don't change out those motors as often as many change phones? Ditto on a yacht.
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 01:28 PM   #204
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
The use of diesel-electric drive in the mining and railroad industry is because a diesel could never move from a standstill those loads with its weak kneed torque curve. An electric motor has all available torque at 1 rpm.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 03:33 PM   #205
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
The use of diesel-electric drive in the mining and railroad industry is because a diesel could never move from a standstill those loads with its weak kneed torque curve. An electric motor has all available torque at 1 rpm.

Not so fast now Bob, there are many very large mining trucks without electric wheel drive motors. Think very big torque convertors. Remember, it is all about money. At some point an electric motor is lighter and cheaper than a TQ, generally once above diesel size of 1500 HP or so. Miners would rather haul ore than on board fixed equipment.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 04:01 PM   #206
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Sunchaser earlier in this thread stated he purchased diesel fuel for $3.50 per gallon. Deckofficer stated earlier a projected cost of approximately $9,000 for his LiFeP04 battery bank. As the battery bank essentially is Deckofficer's fuel source, the cost of fuel is fixed at $9,000 for let's assume a 10 year period.

$9,000 divided by $3.50 = 2,571 gallons of diesel fuel.

Larry M is arguably the forum leader when it comes to cruising miles under his keel. His Krogen 42 Hobo, is a uniquely efficient displacement hull with single diesel engine ran at efficient cruising speed at about 1,600 RPM. In the Fuel use per hour thread post number 47 Larry M states his best real life cruising average fuel use as 3.5 MPG. In Larry's case in his 42' Krogen $9,000 worth of diesel would move him 9,000 miles.

I have no idea how many miles Deckofficer intends to travel in the 10 year assumed life of his batteries but after 9,000 miles the balance is essentially free unless I am missing something.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 04:20 PM   #207
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
Sunchaser earlier in this thread stated he purchased diesel fuel for $3.50 per gallon. Deckofficer stated earlier a projected cost of approximately $9,000 for his LiFeP04 battery bank. As the battery bank essentially is Deckofficer's fuel source, the cost of fuel is fixed at $9,000 for let's assume a 10 year period.

$9,000 divided by $3.50 = 2,571 gallons of diesel fuel.

Larry M is arguably the forum leader when it comes to cruising miles under his keel. His Krogen 42 Hobo, is a uniquely efficient displacement hull with single diesel engine ran at efficient cruising speed at about 1,600 RPM. In the Fuel use per hour thread post number 47 Larry M states his best real life cruising average fuel use as 3.5 MPG. In Larry's case in his 42' Krogen $9,000 worth of diesel would move him 9,000 miles.

I have no idea how many miles Deckofficer intends to travel in the 10 year assumed life of his batteries but after 9,000 miles the balance is essentially free unless I am missing something.
Pretty much right on. I do consider my $9K battery bank as an expensive fuel tank and the solar panels as a means of dribbling "fuel" into that "tank". If you had the room, a 10,000 watt solar bank of panels would allow constant 5 kt cruising 24/7, 365 days a year as proved by transatlantic21: Boat when they crossed the Atlantic using a C60 heavy old catamaran commercial ferry converted for this project and a bunch of heavy AGM batteries to get them through the night or extended cloudy days. We have come a long way in battery technology since that crossing.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 04:22 PM   #208
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Furthermore an "Extremely aggressive" cruising schedule based on blogs I've read and posts at other forums would be 20 miles per day annual average. For arguments sake let's assume half that? 10 miles per day average for a year would be 3,650 miles per year.

3,650 miles per year x 5 year battery life would net 18,250 miles if 5 years was the life of Deckofficer's battery pack.

Best estimates range from 6 to 12 year battery life from well managed LiFePo4 batteries. That info comes from a variety of sources on the web.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:25 PM   #209
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
I have no idea how many miles Deckofficer intends to travel in the 10 year assumed life of his batteries but after 9,000 miles the balance is essentially free unless I am missing something.
How do the batteries get charged so you can easily knock off 175 miles in 24 hours including night in a 20 to 50 ton monohull?
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 06:52 PM   #210
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
Not a single post on this thread has even hinted at being able to propel a 50 ton monohull 24/7 at 7.25 knots using only solar power. If that's your parameters for a cruising life style, you are married to internal combustion motor(s). Your goal is outside the parameters of renewable energy except perhaps a big sail boat (which is definitely outside this discussion's purvue).

It's easy to dismiss this technology by setting the goal posts outside of the stadium.

Regarding battery life - both LA and LI - it should really be measured in cycles and not years. Think of a battery as a big gas tank - you use it like a little old lady going to church on Sundays (it'll last quite a few years) or to a NASCAR driver - may last a year or so. Each would actually get the same number of kilowatt hours.

And to think of buying diesel on a regular basis for $3.50 /gallon is fantasy. Here in south Florida it hasn't been below $4 since I can remember.
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 07:02 PM   #211
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
How do the batteries get charged so you can easily knock off 175 miles in 24 hours including night in a 20 to 50 ton monohull?
Can't do it in a 20~50t mono. First you need to crunch the numbers for hull efficiency at different speeds, and depending on the size of your propulsion battery bank, determine what speed would allow a 175 nm non stop run.

Using the numbers I have already crunched for the Aspen C90 power proa 28' at 8500 lbs with a 36.4 Kw-hr lithium bank, your speed would be 3.8 kt to cover those 175 nm non stop. With 1900 watts of solar, you would need 4 days on the hook to fully recharge for the return leg.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 07:13 PM   #212
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
[QUOTE=rjtrane;152869]
It's easy to dismiss this technology by setting the goal posts outside of the stadium. QUOTE]

Not in my 30 ton stadium. So what I have to do is sell my nice comfortable trawler, move to a sunny southern climate near the water, and boat in an expensive small cat? Without AC?

I admit, the idea is intriguing, now to sell my skiis! FL here I come
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 07:19 PM   #213
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Different strokes for different folks. For me, being a sailor and on the fence as to the next boat being a sailboat or powerboat, the freedoms of a diesel-electric, solar assisted powerboat are inviting. Upwind without tacking, modest propulsion speed without fuel usage, and with the current state of battery technology and price drops, doable now.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 07:59 PM   #214
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Why sell your trawler and move south? Nobody has suggested you do that. Burn all the diesel you desire. Last I checked nobody thinks its a crime.

My low speed electric car will never be a big hit with most folks due to its limited speed and range. In our environment and for our lifestyle it works fine.

Likewise low speed electric boats will never make sense if it doesn't fit your lifestyle and environment. Horses for courses, if the horse won't run your course why would you want it regardless of price?
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 08:48 PM   #215
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
I can understand why you don't want to give up your 30 tonner. The largest trawler we built was 80 tons and life aboard was quite pleasant. We all cried when she was sold. Botn the Key Largo, Billy Joel renamed her Red Head. Even with cheaper diesel, filling up her 2,500 gallon fuel tank took a swipe out of our MasterCard. That boat was no candidate for pure e-power either.

But, had the technology existed at the time, 1988, she would have been a candidate for hybrid electrical system for hotel loads and even short range, limited speed e-power (using a parallel system). It would have kept down the hours on her pair of 20 kw generators.
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 09:04 PM   #216
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Reuben,
You have enjoyed some unique boating circles. For that, I trust your perspective. My background is limited in comparison. Started as a kid with the family's Flying Junior and other boats of friends, then my Cal 40 and finally commercial ships, with the last one the smallest at 32,000 ton displacement and diesel-electric propulsion. Do you think you will be going forward with the extending ama, diesel-solar-electric cruiser in the sub $300K range?
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 09:16 PM   #217
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
low speed electric boats will never make sense if it doesn't fit your lifestyle and environment. Horses for courses, if the horse won't run your course why would you want it regardless of price?
Good point. I really can't justify the costs of the changes I'd like now, but in the next two years, my style of cruising will fall into parameters that may make an electric hybrid a good choice. Meanwhile, battery tech improves as does consumption rates of motors and appliances. Sunshine has everything I need right now in a cruising boat except the ability to take Florida sunshine with it wherever it goes.

The reason I'm eyeballing the Aspen asymmetrical cat is because I really like the idea of a design which one could use a bracket-mounted dinghy motor as a reasonable, controllable get-home option, as the boat is intended for a single power plant anyway. The Buzzards Bay is a dream boat (may be a better platform too), but would probably need twins for performance sake. No doubt that it could be a real hybrid contender, but the extra cost is only worth it if one enjoys the performance assets it delivers as-is. I think Aspen is already manufacturing the most economic, reasonable, sale-able platform for a hybrid experiment right now. A close second could be the equally spacious, Polish-built MotorCat 30 which was reported to reach a 10 knot cruise with twin Merc. 9.9's in a UK test, and can be had for something over 110K without the 50 HP outboards they typically wear. I don't know jack about marketing strategy in boats, but the hybrid or electric designs are still pretty exotic. The richest guy I know has a Prius, but his other car is a Rolls Royce. Both are toys.
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 10:18 PM   #218
Guru
 
River Cruiser's Avatar
 
City: UMR MM283
Country: US
Vessel Name: Northern Lights II
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,226
Last fall a couple stopped at the marina with a home made cat, after spending 14 years building it they were on their maiden voyage to Florida. It was I'am guessing 18' beam & 34' long, power was 2 Mercury 20 hp outboards, in talking with them I learned they were getting 8 mpg. This was with the current at the time in our pool of about 1.5 mph. Once in Florida they were going to buy a mast, sails & rigging. I can't see the benefit of electric power with the cost of associated components when these results can be had with a couple of dependable old school Merc outboards used with the proper hull if your goal is economy in a powerboat. If the goal is a powerboat with 0 carbon footprint then I can see electric as a logical choice.
__________________
Ron on Northern Lights II
I don't like making plans for the day because the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.
River Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 11:31 PM   #219
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Good point. I really can't justify the costs of the changes I'd like now, but in the next two years, my style of cruising will fall into parameters that may make an electric hybrid a good choice. Meanwhile, battery tech improves as does consumption rates of motors and appliances. Sunshine has everything I need right now in a cruising boat except the ability to take Florida sunshine with it wherever it goes.

The reason I'm eyeballing the Aspen asymmetrical cat is because I really like the idea of a design which one could use a bracket-mounted dinghy motor as a reasonable, controllable get-home option, as the boat is intended for a single power plant anyway. The Buzzards Bay is a dream boat (may be a better platform too), but would probably need twins for performance sake. No doubt that it could be a real hybrid contender, but the extra cost is only worth it if one enjoys the performance assets it delivers as-is. I think Aspen is already manufacturing the most economic, reasonable, sale-able platform for a hybrid experiment right now. A close second could be the equally spacious, Polish-built MotorCat 30 which was reported to reach a 10 knot cruise with twin Merc. 9.9's in a UK test, and can be had for something over 110K without the 50 HP outboards they typically wear. I don't know jack about marketing strategy in boats, but the hybrid or electric designs are still pretty exotic. The richest guy I know has a Prius, but his other car is a Rolls Royce. Both are toys.
I have to tell you your research is more thorough than mine, the MotorCat 30 is another very high efficiency hull, I had fun crunching its low speed power consumption numbers because since it is set up for outboards already, the conversion is simple with the AquaWatt outboards. http://www.all4solar.com.au/AW_BROCHURE_EN_2012.pdf
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 11:53 PM   #220
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by River Cruiser View Post
If the goal is a powerboat with 0 carbon footprint then I can see electric as a logical choice.
Speaking for myself only, the carbon footprint is a nice side benefit for conversational purpose only. I'm not some closet greenie regardless of how my recent posts may make me look to others.

My primary interest is in nearly silent propulsion. Hold over from my previous life with a manufacturing company that did R&D and retrofit work in that field for the US Navy. An area of personal interest of mine that dovetails nicely into my current boating hobby and passion for small electric vehicles.

I'm also a devout tinkerer with a curious nature that enjoys figuring out either how stuff works or better yet, how I can make things work.
__________________

__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012