Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-27-2013, 01:06 PM   #181
Guru
 
Conrad's Avatar
 
City: Calgary
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blue Sky
Vessel Model: Nordic Tugs 42 Hull #001
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,553
Although I've never been aboard one, I recall being very impressed with the vessel after reading an article about it in Passagemaker Magazine. The layout and detailing was a new and refreshing approach I thought. (I actually thought it would make a great cruiser with just a conventional drive train, which would eliminate the solar panels.)
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Conrad
Berthed in
Campbell River BC
Conrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 01:11 PM   #182
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Reuben, I forgot to mention your Segway and it's davit. What a trick way to grab some groceries. As long as the store is within 12 miles of the marina you are at, it would be so easy to provision.
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 02:48 PM   #183
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
This is a great thread full of great information. Both the negatives and positives are very important to the conversation.

Deckifficer speaks a lot of truth about the conservative nature of boat designers and end users. The status quo is always a difficult trend to buck weather it's boat design or farming practices. The conservative approach is a well found one that is worthy of respect. But just because something has been around a long time does not mean its the only way to skin a cat.

I remember well the introduction of unleaded gasoline to America. How catalytic converters and pollution control devices would be the bane of hot rodding automobiles. The younger among us have no memory of these introductions and hot rod their Honda Civics just like we did our GTO's.

The future is here and it's here to stay. There will always be old boats and those of us who love them. But in the decades ahead it will be the new generation of alternative propulsion will become far more widespread. Don't take my word for it though, call your local Grand Banks dealer and try ordering a new boat with NA Diesel engines without electronic controls.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 03:17 PM   #184
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post

Deckifficer speaks a lot of truth about the conservative nature of boat designers and end users. "Their business model is to make a profit & sell to as many customers as possible which is more achievable by being on the conservative side with the design." I always thought of my company as a "Me Too" company. In other words, I could look around and see products that I know I could make better and for less money, thus assuring me a piece of that market from the outset. We were not pioneers as there was no money in doing that. If you think back, the Japanese did that very same thing to us and now it's the Chinese who are doing it.

The future is here and it's here to stay. I have always preached to my employees that "the future belongs to those that manage change the best." The operative word being manage, as opposed to accept. We are going through a herculean change in America at the moment. Are we managing the situation or just accepting it? Is this change better for the country, in your opinion?

Don't take my word for it though, call your local Grand Banks dealer and try ordering a new boat with NA Diesel engines without electronic controls. You have me there! I was opposed to electronic controls at first but have learned to love them!
Always a thought provoking post by you, Craig , and I appreciate and enjoy it very much.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 03:56 PM   #185
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Craig,

Your right, this thread is very informative. We are lucky to have someone like Reuben taking time out of a busy schedule to enlighten us as to possible futures in pleasure boating. I left the Merchant Marine in 2002 and have missed out on advances in my old industry. By 2008 some ships were flying kites to save on fuel usage, wish I could have served on one.

I have put out the invite for Aspen Catamaran owner and designer Larry Graf to join us on this forum. Larry has exchanged a couple of emails with me that I wish he would have used the same effort to post those thoughts here. Efficient hulls is the future of pleasure boating and a side benefit to efficient hulls is both less wake in sensitive areas and a smoother ride. He has taken boating journalists out in conditions that 40' older designs would have given a torturous ride at any speed, he is zipping along at 20 kt in a little 28' boat. He has received a patent on his power proa hull design. Even though he hasn't given thought to solar assisted diesel-electric propulsion, I believe he would work with me to create and build that design for me. I didn't want to go to such a small boat for my cruising usage, but at the price he produces the Aspen C90, it would allow for all of my ideas and still be in my budget.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 04:08 PM   #186
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Thanks Walt. The "Me Too" business model is tried and true and has been replicated well both at home and abroad, not just in manufacturing either. Absolutely nothing wrong with it and it is wildly successful. It's also an apt description of 99% of the marine industry IMO. Innovation is for those few visionaries among us that dare to ask the question "What If?". Steve Jobs and many others come to mind as the ones asking "What If?".

I honestly doubt we will see 25% of the market using alternative propulsion in the next 20 years. I do however feel that somewhere the tipping point will be reached cost wise and market share will be there. Lacking a crystal ball I know not when that'll be, but then again I have some real estate I'd rather have sold when that market peaked as well...

At the risk of taking this political which I won't do, on a macro level change is not being managed well at all. The thing that excites me about the changes in this aspect of the boating industry is it doesn't come with governmental blood money attached. Diesel propulsion changes specifically are coming as a result of regulation, good or bad you decide. What Reuben and others are doing is for profit motivations, which I respect. If the market accepts it now or 20 years from now remains to be seen. But the $550K price point I've heard in these threads for a 40' alternative power cruising boat sounds like it's right in the strike zone for comparable sized brand new cruising boat.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 04:39 PM   #187
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
The status quo is always a difficult trend to buck weather it's boat design or farming practices. Where have you been, the marine industry changes in the past 10 years are dramatic. Just because some are not proponents of E drive doesn't mean status quo is the case. Many E drive choices are out there for the willing wealthy. Farming you say - some lament the passing of the plow horse and steam tractors.

The future is here and it's here to stay. There will always be old boats and those of us who love them. Those who cannot afford to spend $500K+ will indeed be a few boat generations behind and wish for what is already available as if it doesn't exist.

But in the decades ahead it will be the new generation of alternative propulsion will become far more widespread. The changes to engines and drive systems have been dramatic even without the E drive guys holding sway. Step onto a center console with twin 350 HP outboards, Volvo IPS, Zeus, Zimmerman 54, Nordhavn 63 or look at a new common rail Cummins for a reminder.

Don't take my word for it though, call your local Grand Banks dealer and try ordering a new boat with NA Diesel engines without electronic controls. GB or any other new boat builder cannot sell or install an NA engine unless it is Tier III/IV Which few if any NAs are
The notion that one must accept marine E drive as the future is ill founded. Look no further than the auto industry. With NA the world's dominant supplier of fossil fuels, the future for very efficient gas and diesel IC engines has never been brighter. BMW is now into 3 cylinder ICs, who would have thought -----

At about 1.5 to 3 NMPG (or higher) for our diesel trawlers, who needs E for long distance cruising and why? Hobbyists - wealthy ones - that's who, and that is OK, it is good for the economy.
sunchaser is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 04:59 PM   #188
Guru
 
River Cruiser's Avatar
 
City: UMR MM283
Country: US
Vessel Name: Northern Lights II
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,226
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
What you need to fulfill this dream before you go to the "Great Beyond" is a "sail boat!" It will do everything you've described and with limitless range!

I don't say this to be cute but rather I get a lot of satisfaction out of seeing people achieve their dreams.
Exactly, a electric starter to crank the Hinos is all I require.
__________________
Ron on Northern Lights II
I don't like making plans for the day because the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.
River Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 08:34 PM   #189
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
The notion that one must accept marine E drive as the future is ill founded. Look no further than the auto industry. With NA the world's dominant supplier of fossil fuels, the future for very efficient gas and diesel IC engines has never been brighter. BMW is now into 3 cylinder ICs, who would have thought -----

At about 1.5 to 3 NMPG (or higher) for our diesel trawlers, who needs E for long distance cruising and why? Hobbyists - wealthy ones - that's who, and that is OK, it is good for the economy.
Well, for my retirement being more meager than yours, the choice of 1.5 to 3.0 nmpg at a projected $8~$10 per gallon or sailing, leaves me with sailing as the only option for year around cruising. However, at a slow pace, which I'm fine with that, solar powered cruising is doable now and the payback even with diesel at $4 per gallon would be just a few years for the distances I plan to cover. Even with the modest plan of having the Aspen C90 built to my specs as I outlined in post #177, I could cruise 22,000 miles per year with just solar. That 22,000 miles at 3 nmpg would be 7333 gallons and even at the low price of $4 for diesel would tap the cruising kitty to the tune of almost $30K per year. If it was 1.5 nmpg, then double that, and when diesel is $8 per gallon, double it again. That is now $120K in fuel for a year cruising at 22,000 miles. The math is simple, either you have a retirement income of $100K+ per year and you love full time motor cruising, or you have a retirement income of something south of $50K and will have to sail or have the sun propel your travels. Due to me caring for my dad during my most productive years, it is either sailing or solar boating for me.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 08:55 PM   #190
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Well, for my retirement being more meager than yours, the choice of 1.5 to 3.0 nmpg at a projected $8~$10 per gallon .
My most recent fill up was about $3.50 per gallon. If you really want to save money sell the boat.
sunchaser is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 09:18 PM   #191
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
My most recent fill up was about $3.50 per gallon. If you really want to save money sell the boat.
That is pretty flippant. With the history of fuel prices, what do you think that gallon of diesel will be in 10 years? I'm glad for you that your cruising lifestyle and distances each year will not impact the amount of cruising you want to do as fuel prices continue to climb, but I'm not in the same boat so to speak.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 09:46 PM   #192
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
That is pretty flippant.
Not flippant at all. Many of us have sold boats because the cost vs the fun doesn't balance. All the boating activities talked about on TF are optional from either the time, fun or money aspect. I applaud you for choosing a boating lifestyle that suits you and your budget.

PS I remember when boat fuel went from 35 to 45 cents per gallon, the world was ending then too.
sunchaser is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 09:56 PM   #193
Guru
 
healhustler's Avatar
 
City: Longboat Key, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bucky
Vessel Model: Krogen Manatee 36 North Sea
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
For those that have no desire to cross oceans at the stately speed of just under 3 kt, (faster in reality because you would plan your passages as us sailors, using wind and ocean currents) with 36.4 Kw-hr of storage you could run at these speeds for given distances using the Aspen C90's hull efficient design. One of these distances might suit you for your cruising, if not, fire up the diesel.

16.3 nm @ 12.5 kt
26 nm @ 10 kt
40.6 nm @ 7.8 kt
65.1 nm @ 6.25 kt

104.1 nm @ 5 kt
162.4 nm @ 3.9 kt
258.2 nm @ 3.1 kt
415.5 nm @ 2.5 kt

With the 1520 watts of solar and sunny days, it will take 5 days on the hook to return under stored electrons.

Dang, Bob. I've been eyeing-up Aspens since the prototype, and if I could get in that boat with an expectation that the two highlighted categories above would apply, that would pretty much cover the enjoyment factor aboard the boat I have right now. We're probably doing the loop next year, but once that is completed, we'll be going back to evening dinner cruises with 4-6, and that combo would fit for that usage as well as the majority of casual boat users on we know here in Key Biscayne, who often do jaunts down to Diner Key and back on the weekends. Over on the Gulf Side (Sarasota), even more so with the older, more conservative population.
healhustler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2013, 11:21 PM   #194
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
Dang, Bob. I've been eyeing-up Aspens since the prototype, and if I could get in that boat with an expectation that the two highlighted categories above would apply, that would pretty much cover the enjoyment factor aboard the boat I have right now. We're probably doing the loop next year, but once that is completed, we'll be going back to evening dinner cruises with 4-6, and that combo would fit for that usage as well as the majority of casual boat users on we know here in Key Biscayne, who often do jaunts down to Diner Key and back on the weekends. Over on the Gulf Side (Sarasota), even more so with the older, more conservative population.
There is one hull that I have found that is more efficient than the Aspen, and that is the Chris White designed Buzzard's Bay. New it is $200K more than the Aspen, plus being a twin engine catamaran would require higher conversion costs. The beauty of LiFePO4 cells that Reuben just switched to is their power density and current price. I have also used these cells on another project and can attest their a-hr rating equates to 2X the a-hr rating of a lead acid. The battery bank I am using in my calculations is made up of (16) 700 a-hr LiFePO4 cells, giving 36400 w-hr of storage and at just $560 for each cell comes to only $8960. With a 3000 cycle life minimum, that is over 10 years of constant cruising before the bank only holds 80% of its new capacity. This is the main reason the whole concept is viable now and that is the drop in prices of these cells. Just two years ago they were still too expensive. I feel confident in my numbers, at 7.8 kt your range on stored electrons (further during the day as more energy is harvested), would be 40 nm and at 6.25 kt good for 65 nm.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 07:03 AM   #195
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
Exactly, a electric starter to crank the Hinos is all I require.

No need for electric to start a small diesel.

Wind up springs and hand pumped hydraulic with an accumulator seem to work for many euro lifeboat services.

Air start works for larger engines, tho emergency refilling the air tank is seldom a hand job.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 09:46 AM   #196
Senior Member
 
rjtrane's Avatar
 
City: Palmetto Bay
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sunshine
Vessel Model: Island Pilot DSe 12m Hybrid
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 268
More than once on this post I have read about the high entry price for an e-boat. Bob is right, the cost of the technology continues to become more affordable and better at the same time. It seems the only way to make inroads is to create a cruising yacht that is both affordable and meets certain performance criteria.

It seems that members of this forum find $500k for a new yacht out of the question. How about $200k - $250k? Is that a doable price tag? (Look at Ranger Tugs success with the $200k + for a 30 footer that performs OK.) Bob seems OK with the price of the Aspen.

Many on this forum have displacement speed trawlers. So is 7-8 knots OK? Some mention their trawlers can go faster - maybe 13 - 15 knots? How many actually cruise these inefficient boats at those height speeds sucking diesel, blowing black smoke and creating wakes you could surf on?

The typical $200k/30 footer has a double berth in the bow and some sort of "guest" (read "kids") berth tucked away. Can I assume this is OK?

Is ocean-crossing a "must have?"

So, would the resistance to an e-boat (including hybrids) lessen if thus criteria can be met? Is there other criteria I'm missing?

Bob feels that the Aspen can be modified to meet his needs for an e-boat. Within his budget after modifications. I tend to agree with Bob on this. But, being in the business, I like the idea of starting with a clean sheet of paper and creating the right boat from scratch. We felt we had cracked the code with the DSe 12m. Turns out is was a step in the right direction, but never found a market. Price. Looks. Performance. Building on the 5 years of ownership and use, plus the better, more affordable technology AND with an economy that has reduced many baby boomers retirement expectations, I feel a more modest solution may just find a market.

In the summer, I row 4 miles at dawn of each day. It hit me last summer that long and lean is easily propelled - how else could an aging boat builder move his shell out and back each day. So I opened up my AutoCad and with some cutting and pasting - a bit of stretching and squeezing, designed a new 12m with but a single lean center hull, kept upright with a pair of expandable amas. This makes her not only trailerable, but also containerizable (fits into a standard 40' shipping container). The goal of this new e-boat is 6-8 knots using electric propulsion - 5 knots for 5 hours under battery alone - 12-13 knots using a 100 HP modern, computer controlled, common-rail diesel. And she crosses oceans safely on board a container ship - about $2,500 to anywhere in the world. The canopy would hold about 3kw of PV. This is my current thinking. Right now I have completed a 1/4 scale towing model - I'm awaiting some parts for my DSe so I can tow her on a calm day in Card Sound. She is designed to be made of welded HDPE (plastic) which requires no upkeep, not even bottom paint. Also no capitalization (read 1/2 mil for tooling). May not pan out, but worth a shot.

Targeted price? $200k for base model - plug-in only. Max price with parallel hybrid , solar, etc., $250k.

Is this closer to the expectations of the forum's members? Or are we competing with mid-70s, 35 footers, very used trawlers fitted with aging diesels at about $50k? That much purchased a really nice center console with twin outboards and trailer at the Miami boat show. If that's the case, we're just spinning our wheels here.
__________________
Reuben Trane
"Sunshine" - Island Pilot DSe 12m
rjtrane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 10:04 AM   #197
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtrane View Post
If that's the case, we're just spinning our wheels here.
I'd agree since I don't boat near the equator. If I did I'd want nice reliable diesels with some thought given to roof mounted solar panels for battery charging.

Not mentioned is investment and resale value. Does the used boat market place even recognize 75% plus electric drive? As fast as I throw away my phones and computers, I cannot conceive how a 2013 electric boat would be appealing to anybody in 2020 without big bucks spent on re-tooling the gizmos to get the latest and greatest technology to satisfy the techno lovers like Bob. This Forum is a perfect example of how the appeal of "tried and true" lasts for decades.

BTW, my first in depth experience with electric drive was in very large mine haul trucks over 40 years ago. Great application and still alive and well today. Electric drive applications that make sense are all over the industrial, normal living and pleasure world and have been for close to 130 years now.
sunchaser is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 10:23 AM   #198
Guru
 
swampu's Avatar


 
City: Biloxi, MS
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cajun Rose
Vessel Model: Biloxi Lugger
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by deckofficer View Post
Where does China and India fit in on this scale? Both produce for their domestic markets more zero emission vehicles than the rest of the world.
I don't think he was talking about bicycles!
swampu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 10:36 AM   #199
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjtrane View Post
It seems that members of this forum find $500k for a new yacht out of the question.
Not true! $500K for an E-trawler is out of the question for most.

There are 35-40' trawlers that can be bought for less than $500K which would more than satisfy most on this forum. Why? They have a decent turn of speed, are economical to operate, they fit most marina slips (beam) and are ergonomically pleasing to the "admirals" of the fleet. Ad to this that they appeal to a wide range of buyers in the after market.

I think an E-trawler's time has not come yet. I owned a 21' Duffy (all electric) when I lived on Lake Serena in Scottsdale,AZ. It was a great little dinner cruiser that my wife, dogs and I enjoyed very much. In fact, it was the first electric boat on that man made lake and resulted in other homeowners jumping on the band wagon. Why? No gas powered motors were allowed, the lake was a very calm lake, no one slept aboard, 4-5 knots just made the lake seem bigger and you simply plugged it in when you got back to your doc & the resale was almost automatic. In short, it was the perfect environment for an electric boat. The trawler environment (IMO) is not!
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 11:49 AM   #200
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Reuben, you are onto something now with your latest concept. Being able to be shipped in a 40' container would open up markets that already are more accepting of e-boats such as SA, NZ, Australia, France, and pretty much Europe in general. The retractable ama system like the Drangonfly high end trimaran allows using a normal slip at a marina. Costs of a single hull, single propulsion are reduced, allowing a new build to be sold in the $200K~$300K market which for a purpose designed boat that meets my needs is a deal closer. My needs would include ocean crossing capability even if a 24 hour run is only 65 nm, but more is better. All electric galley, all the way down to an electric BBQ on the railing which I am currently using. Being able to charge an electric dinghy from the mothership. I do not want propane or gasoline on board. A main berth and a quarter berth is all I require, but two regular size berths would be more marketable. And something that always seems to be missing on all smaller boats, a Nav station large enough to handle a chart, instruments, and HF SSB radio. On that subject, when the hull is laid include a good counterpoise for HF radio operations. Of course fridge, freezer (large for those slow ocean passages) and lighting should be all energy efficient, like LED lights. The propulsion bank at 48 volts should also serve the inverter so a heavy AC gen set is not required because the hybrid drive, solar and storage of the batteries will provide all the AC voltage you would need.

And your right, long and lean are the way to go. When one of our ships are stretched and kept the same beam, even though heavier in displacement, it would return a better fuel burn. My own little kayak requires only 32 w-hr per mile, so with (8) Winston 100 a-hr cells has a range of 80 nm, great for kayak camping.

Reuben, the above would be my dream boat. I have worked with companies in the past with sponsorship of my EV racing and I don't see why you couldn't do the same for the prototype that I would purchase from you to really wring out and show proof of concept. I have crossed oceans more times than I can remember and feel comfortable in that setting. Winston batteries is trying to find a market for their amazing cells, and as you mentioned, the baby boomers that represent the largest population bubble are coming into their retirement years with a bit less income than they had hoped for.

Reuben, keep your ideas flowing on this and other forums. Make life simple and copy and paste to other forums for feedback. I found this forum only because it is a sister forum to the Cruiser's Forum where I have 2900 posts.
__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012