Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-16-2013, 10:56 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
justinclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
Electric Inboards

I know this electric/solar subject has been beat to death. Recently have become extremely curious about the subject. Considering gas is 4 bucks a gallon on land and fetches 5 in water. Anyways i seen on west marine electric inboards capable of pushing 5 thousand pounds. So if you ran 2 it would be around 10k. I know installed they run about 20k giver er take. To me though if someone is spending 10-15 k a yr on fuel......Everybody dismisses bc of battery weight, charging system ect. I dont know just tickles my brain i guess. Anyone mess around with this stuff or even electric outboards??? Seen they have 30hp outboards that have been praised for reliability, ease of use, longevity and good range.
__________________
Advertisement

justinclay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 11:25 AM   #2
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
We had an electric out board for the sailing dink for the grandchildren to use around/in the marina as it did not push the dink very fast, but fast enough for them. When on Lake Union I use like to row the sailing dink, but many times used the electric to help get my back especially against the wind.

However now we are in Everett on the Snohomish River and the electric motor is not powerful enough against the current and the wind, so now we use a 4 HP Merc engine. Many boats use an eclectic motor for trolling at slow speed on the Puget Sound, but they use the main engine to charge. The resaon they use smaller out boards is the big many eninge will not go slow enough to troll. They are called a kicker. So they work for certain applications and conditions

Last year a 28 ft Bayliner engine froze up so they replaces it was two electric out drives, However the boat can barely do hull speed and it struggles in the wind. I don’t think they have left the marina yet. I don’t think they have very much invested and probable wished they have rebuilt/replaced the engine.


It seem if you are going to go elecrric you wold still need a small gen set to charge the bateries. Solar pannels are wothless in the cloudy/rainy PWN. My impression is you want to go down the path, you need a lot of money with very little pay back.
__________________

Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 11:30 AM   #3
Senior Member
 
justinclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
Yea i seen that price is a big concern. To me though the freedom from fuels is a very nice thought.
justinclay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 12:41 PM   #4
Guru
 
LaBomba's Avatar
 
City: Beaverton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Airswift
Vessel Model: Ontario Yachts Great Lakes 33
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 818
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinclay View Post
Yea i seen that price is a big concern. To me though the freedom from fuels is a very nice thought.
As has been stated in other threads, the cost of fuel is minimal in relations to the cost of mooring, insurance, maintenance, repairs, upgrades etc. If you have a vessel that is efficient, mine is 2 gph, and you put on a few hundred hours a year, your really not talking much money in the grand scheme of things. I have used electrics on my flat back canoe and also 14 ft aluminum fishing boat and love the no noise aspect and low speed control capability for trolling but don't currently see it as efficient primary power. Just MHO.
__________________
Allan & Ann
Airswift
LaBomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 12:57 PM   #5
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
As has been stated in other threads, the cost of fuel is minimal in relation to the cost of mooring, insurance, maintenance, repairs, upgrades etc..
Why is this component of the total cost of trawlering so hard to accept?
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:07 PM   #6
Guru
 
LaBomba's Avatar
 
City: Beaverton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Airswift
Vessel Model: Ontario Yachts Great Lakes 33
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 818
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
Why is this component of the total cost of trawlering so hard to accept?
Hey Walt, not sure if you question/comment is meant in a positive or negative respect but from a personal opinion, after having an offshore with twin 350s and a walkaround with a 200hp outboard, I am ecstatic with my trawler and 2 gph and consider this cost as being minimal. The only way to go cheaper is to buy a sail boat, no thanks. Depends on each individuals perspective I would guess.
__________________
Allan & Ann
Airswift
LaBomba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:27 PM   #7
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBomba View Post
Hey Walt, not sure if you question/comment is meant in a positive or negative respect.....
Good point! What I'm trying to say is that all this effort to burn as little fuel as possible, when compared to all the big ticket expenses one faces in our chosen pursuit, seems a little myopic to me.

We don't seem to bat an eye at a $2K bottom job or a $5K electronics suite, etc. but when it's time to buy fuel, we're all tied up in our underwear! To my way of thinking, "it's penny wise & pound foolish."
In other words, Allan, I support your position.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:29 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
portager's Avatar
 
City: Silverado, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Osprey
Vessel Model: Nimble Wanderer
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 173
The US Navy is working on the electric propulsion for their ships, so it is possible. This USN system consists of very large electric motors driving propellers and diesel electric generators distributed around the ship. So, you could make an electric trawler if you wanted to, but you would still need diesel to run the generator.

It isn't very practical to use batteries. Take a DeFever 48 as an example, at 50,000 lbs displacement, 14' 4" beam and 40' 11" LWL it takes 80.9 HP or 60 KW to maintain 8 knots with no wind and no waves. Using Trojan T-106 6V gulf cart batteries, which are rated at 225 AH at 6 Volts they are capable of holding 225 AH * 6 V = 1,350 Watt hours or 1.35 KW HR each. Using 50% depth of discharge (to get better cycle life) reduces this to 0.675 KW HR. So for every hour of battery operation at 8 knots you need 60 KW / 0.675 KW HR = 89 T-105 batteries. With a battery weight of 62 lbs each, this equals 5,511 lbs of batteries per hour of operation. The battery bank to provide a 10 hour cruise endurance would exceed the gross weight of the boat.

Now lets talk about solar panels (and neglect the typical cloud cover in the PNW). According to Wikipedia, the most efficient mass-produced solar panels have energy density values of up to 16.22 W/ft^2 (175 W/m^2). To produce 60 KW at the optimum time of the day you would need 60,000 W / 175 W/m^2 = 342 m^2 of solar collecting area. If you limit the collector area to the length of the vessel, i.e. 48' then the solar collector needs to be 14.63 meters wide. Unfortunately the DeFever 48 has a 14' 4" = 4.36 meters so the solar panel will be over three times the beam of the vessel. Now, if you want to be able to maintain speed over a significant portion of the day (i.e. 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM) you will need to double the collector area. If you want to be able to boat with 50% cloud cover double it again.

Maybe if you built a long catamaran with a significant beam and made it very light weight you could set a solar powered boat speed record, but could you take it anywhere?
portager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:36 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
justinclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
Im not saying its hard to except, im completely aware the cost of fuel is minimal to the overall cost. That don't mean you should totally get rid of the idea in general. I mean even though you would be saving a little on fuel. With the larger battery bank plus solar panels while your out on the water save on genset fuel. I just dont get why people totally dismiss the idea?? Is it bc people are scared of change?? Im no genius on boating ill admit that believe me. Just wanting to know the actual reason why people totally dismiss the idea.
justinclay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:40 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
justinclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
Thank you portager. That shed a lot of light for me. So the main concern is the amount of batteries you would have to have in order to maintain a decent range? Could you cut a little weight by adding solar panels and a diesel genset??
justinclay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:54 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
portager's Avatar
 
City: Silverado, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Osprey
Vessel Model: Nimble Wanderer
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinclay View Post
Im not saying its hard to except, im completely aware the cost of fuel is minimal to the overall cost. That don't mean you should totally get rid of the idea in general. I mean even though you would be saving a little on fuel. With the larger battery bank plus solar panels while your out on the water save on genset fuel. I just dont get why people totally dismiss the idea?? Is it bc people are scared of change?? Im no genius on boating ill admit that believe me. Just wanting to know the actual reason why people totally dismiss the idea.
Read my previous post. I don't think anyone is dismissing the idea without giving it adequate thought. Conversely, those who are advocating it have given it insufficient thought. Take a look at the Duffy electric boats Duffy Electric Boat Company - The world's leading manufacturer of electric boats since 1970.. Here is So Cal they are ubiquitous. They are great for putting around the harbor and almost every dock has one in Newport Beach CA. Duffy even launched the first solar powered boat in 1979 Duffy Electric Boat Company launches World

portager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 02:01 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
portager's Avatar
 
City: Silverado, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Osprey
Vessel Model: Nimble Wanderer
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinclay View Post
Thank you portager. That shed a lot of light for me. So the main concern is the amount of batteries you would have to have in order to maintain a decent range? Could you cut a little weight by adding solar panels and a diesel genset??
What is practical, in the right climate, is adding solar panels help the battery charger and offset the load on the generator. Most boats consume much more house power than solar panels can provide, but where they do help is maintaining the battery charge while the boat is at anchor. Solar can also help by providing the float charge and allowing the generator to be shut off once bulk charge is complete.

This is a fairly simple way to utilize solar power without the massive expense of replacing the main engines.
portager is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 03:33 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
How about a purpose built, light weight cat that has 8000 nm on just 8 Kw of solar?
Boat - SolarWave

Or a clunky, heavy C60 commercial cat ferry can cross the Atlantic on just 10 Kw of solar panels, does that not prove the concept viable?
transatlantic21: The world's first crossing of the Atlantic on a solar boat
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 03:46 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
justinclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
wow, that solarwave is amazing...... exactly the idea/thought i had in my head.
justinclay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 03:58 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinclay View Post
wow, that solarwave is amazing...... exactly the idea/thought i had in my head.
It is just a matter of hull efficiency and displacement. My personal best is 32 w-hr per nm. To put that in perspective, using LiFePO4 cells, I've covered 80 nm on 60 lbs of batteries.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 04:00 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
justinclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
wow deck officer thats impressive.
justinclay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 04:09 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinclay View Post
wow deck officer thats impressive.
It would be if that vessel had a galley, head, and berth, but it is an electric kayak. Scaled up to something with comfortable cruising capabilities, then you would be looking at around 600 w-hr per nm instead of 32 w-hr.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 04:15 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
justinclay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 133
ahhhhh leaving out the details haha
justinclay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 04:22 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Justin,

To answer your PM, the main concerns is energy storage and production, using a light hull that is efficient. Cats and tri's are a good choice. You will never meet the energy density of fossil fuel, but if slow works for you (like 4~5 kt) you can size a lithium battery bank and solar panels that can give you 100 nm passages with a week on the hook, then another 100 nm passage. This is rather common Caribbean cruising, but without using any fuel.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 04:26 PM   #20
Senior Member
 
deckofficer's Avatar
 
City: Northern California
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 409
Here is what I put together for the kayak.




__________________

__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012