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Old 04-18-2013, 01:58 AM   #81
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Does this help? If I got anything wrong, please correct me?
Just saw this and yes this is extremely helpful. Thank you very much.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:01 AM   #82
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Marin,

As Reuben pointed out, what he and others are doing in this field is probably going to be more attractive to ex sailors going to power. I'm one of those. I had a Cal 40 former race boat that I refit for cruising. Downwind this was a very fast boat, but when you take in all your sailing, 150 nm 24 hour runs is considered good. For scooting out on a short weather window I'll use the 16 kt speed of sucking down dead dinosaurs, but for all other cruising 4~5 kt is just fine, when as with sailing the propulsion is free. On the hook it is a no brainer, with enough solar you can enjoy a fully electric galley, A/C, electric dinghy, all without the noise, vibration, and smell of running a gen set. Now that I know a boat like the Aspen exists, I figure a semi custom new build with the solar-diesel-electric hybrid can be had well within my budget, and this boat is built in the PNW, close to me.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:04 AM   #83
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Could be......(your guess here.)
Mr. Fusion!
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:15 AM   #84
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My thoughts, exactly, Sir Spy.
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:52 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Marin View Post
Until Craig's electric car can carry two people, a dog and luggage, and do a sustained 70 mph with a range of 400 or 500 miles between rechargings, and tow a boat on occasion, it is of absolutley no use to me at any price, nor is it to 90 percent of the rest of the world's population, even the ones who don't have to tow a boat on occasion.
Marin,

Have you looked at the Tesla Roadster. It won't tow your boat but could be a lot of fun.
It has a top speed limited electronically to 125mph.
0 - 100mph in 3.7 seconds.
Range of 245 miles under normal driving conditions but over 300 if driven conservatively. Getting close to meeting your criteria.

If you want one, you better get in line. There's a 2+ year waiting list in the US. The demand is definitely there.
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Old 04-18-2013, 06:12 AM   #86
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It has a top speed limited electronically to 125mph.
0 - 100mph in 3.7 seconds.
Range of 245 miles under normal driving conditions but over 300 if driven conservatively. Getting close to meeting your criteria.


That's the advert spiel.

Has Road & Track, Consumer Reports , or ant unbiased tester ever done these numbers?
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:45 AM   #87
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Like I said in Post # 66:

"At this development juncture - - > Three problems (holdbacks) confront the production and application of an operative hybrid power system:

1. Energy-Charge acceptance rate/speed by batteries
2. Energy-Storage volume and energy release capability per battery pound
3. Energy-Charger efficiency per gallon of diesel fuel, or wind energy / solar energy capture and transfer

Operative word “ENERGY”... Operative problem “NOT ENOUGH”


But, fear not...

Inventions are usually created by luck of simply stepping into "it" or by hard-work/smart-development or by combinations of those capabilities. In this and other cases of energy production, capture, storage, and transfer we can see that although not "there" yet the world is far ahead of years ago. What actual advancements in this global project will bring for our future is anyone's guess??? However, do know, energy production, capture, storage, and transfer will experience improvements as civilization continues to reach toward the goals of new energy sources, reduced energy costs, and lesser pollution weights.

In the mean time, while I (we) power-boaters muse/conjecture on this exciting road toward potential/eventual marine-energy sufficiency... there should be one hell of a FUN 2013 boating season at our command!

Happy Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:23 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by FF View Post
It has a top speed limited electronically to 125mph.
0 - 100mph in 3.7 seconds.
Range of 245 miles under normal driving conditions but over 300 if driven conservatively. Getting close to meeting your criteria.


That's the advert spiel.

Has Road & Track, Consumer Reports , or ant unbiased tester ever done these numbers?
These numbers are according to the US EPA.
As far as I know the car has hardly rated a mention with US magazines such as Road and Track etc. Perhaps this has something to do with advertising revenue? They know who butters their bread.
Tesla does not require advertising. They can't keep up with demand as it is.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:35 AM   #89
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Tesla has gotten lots of press in the US. Mostly for recalls that well heeled buyers of this expensive car are not pleased about.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:36 AM   #90
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Craig,
Your'e hull isn't as bad as you think it is efficiency wise. To figure out how much power you'll need for a full disp hull it's a matter of hp per ton of disp. Well I realize you can't use this hp per ton rule of thumb because you don't have a FD hull but in the relationship between hp and weight there's something very important for you and that is the lightness of your boat. Your boat shape is a negative but your light disp is a positive. You may be able to go 4 knots on less power than Willy.

A Saint Pierre dory is light also and it's a FD hull too so would be far superior no question but w your boat you'll need half as much power as a trawler because your boat is light.

And if you're handy w a sawzall and other woodworking tools a quick and dirty change to the shape of your stern would lower the power required a lot and basically turn your boat into a FD craft. And the look of your boat would'nt change a bit. Would never plane again though.
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:53 AM   #91
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Thanks for that Eric, I had hoped this thread would smoke you out of that hole you've been hiding in up in Concrete lately. Good to hear from you. I'm going to do some real world testing throughout this summer to get some data points on HP required. If a force gauge falls out of the sky I'll try Reuben's tow rope idea if not my Livingston is gonna get a workout seeing what the GPS will read.

I suspect it will take less HP than most would have me believe to move this old lady along at about 5-7 MPH.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:11 AM   #92
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Jeez! I go to sleep and awake to a plethora of posts! I am only sorry I never joined the debate club in school - it would certainly have proven of use over my lifetime. In my senior years, I tend to enjoy debate (much to my wife's consternation) and see NO subject as off limits. I love talking politics with those with ideas contrary to mine - likewise religion - and now boats! Let the conversation continue...

I don't know where to start?

Marin, you're up first: How many current cruising boats can you name that have a range of 600 nm at 13 knots? Or, better yet, how many boaters go 600 miles between stops? When is the last time you shopped new boats? One of the current best selling cruisers are those from Ranger Tugs - they have nailed it - a semi-displacement, trailable cruiser for around $200k for a bit shorter than 30' that sleeps 2 OK and 2 in the basement. Not at all efficient fuel-wise compared to other offerings of similar size, but at displacement speeds, as good as any. It is now possible to build a similar-sized e-boat for a similar price - main difference is it will have DIFFERENT PERFORMANCE, not necessarily less, just different. Slower? Yes. More spartan? Not really. Less range? No. Less range at a single leap? Yes. But total range is essentially infinite. So, it will appeal to a different segment of the market - but, well-designed and engineer, it will find a market. Maybe not in the hundreds, but in the dozens, enough to sustain a small boat builder.

Art: You say, the following is holding back development of hybrid boats "1. Energy-Charge acceptance rate/speed by batteries
2. Energy-Storage volume and energy release capability per battery pound
3. Energy-Charger efficiency per gallon of diesel fuel, or wind energy / solar energy capture and transfer"
Your #1 is here in LI batteries that can accept high rates of charge/discharge - with enough amps you can charge a fully discharged LI battery in half an hour.
Your #2 is where great sums of research time and capital are being expended - and we will never have a non-displacement battery boat until lighter, more dense storage solutions are created. That said, there is no reason to not continue with both self-sustaining displacement e-boats and fun, fast, planing runabouts (Cigarette has one BTW) that are plug-in.
Your #3 is half here already. PM motors/generators are 95% efficient - it's diesel technology (or other petroleum-based motors) where development needs to progress to meet this requirement of yours. Essentially your discussion of dollars per mile boils down to internal combustion technology and not hybrid technology. Yes, solar development moves at a snails pace - the best commercially available cells today are still around 22-23% efficient - something that improves only slightly from year to year.

AusCan: Yes, us seniors grew up with wrenches attached to our hands, a block and tackle on the oak tree and perpetual grease under our fingernails. But, with current modern diesels, there's not much a non-professional can do. Change the oil - change an impeller and serpentine belt - add coolant - change filters. That's about it. I had a high pressure fuel line go on my Volvo D6 several years ago. Luckily I had twins and was able to cruise safely to South Port NC. Parts were ordered and the local service tech effected the repair in an hour. Back in my younger years, on board "Skinny Dipper" (a Phil Bolger Black Skimmer I had built in my back yard) crossing the Gulf Stream in a single-handed race Miami-Bimini, I decided to while away some becalmed hours (see? Sailboats are not the ideal "green" solution) by rebuilding my Sea Gull outboard motor, which always could be made to run, but never could be made to run well! A couple hours later, using a pair of pliers and screwdriver, I had torn it down and put it back together. Those days are history for all but antique aficionados.

I have never thought of myself as a "tinkerer," but I am assuming that is a compliment and I will take it in the manner in which it was said. Island Pilot spent well over $1MM developing the award-winning DSe 12m - I have attached some photos of our "tinkering." You can see by the real-boat pix that at her design weight, she floated on her lines - of course, in our mistaken attempt to make the interior as luxurious as possible, we added a lot of add'l weight making what the water "saw" below the WL not at all pretty and sleek. From the model, you can see just how easily driven the design is (again at the design displacement). And, from the power/speed curve, you can get a good idea as to what our expectations were - if we got to six knots, it was almost "free" to go the additional know to seven (see the shoulder of the curve). But, to go any faster, 8 knot or better, energy requirements rose significantly. This is true of most any design - exceed the hull speed, and until you reach a plane, energy needs grow quickly. The goal was 6 knots at 6 kw - and as I recall, that is close to what we achieved in full-size sea trials. Interestingly, the curves for the tank test in Shanghai, the sea trials of the Glacier Bay version in Zhuhai and those of the Steyr version in Miami, ALL have the same characteristics and with scaling, can lay one on top of the other with only minor discrepancies other than the Y axis (power) which needed adjusting (upward). But relative power for each speed remained consistent.

Since many in this forum own full displacement boats, they have already made the decision to go slowly - 8 knots or less - in exchange for efficiency, creature comforts and range using diesel. In real life, there is not much difference between 6 and 8 knots. With a product that can use renewables, plug-in, and/or hybrid power, I have felt that this 6 knot sustainable goal could find a market - again, look to ex-sailors and other baby boomers with time to spare.

One thing not yet discussed in this thread is living on board at anchor (free of dockage costs and real estate taxes) indefinitely without starting an internal combustion motor to meet your energy needs while still have the ability to cruise along the coast or to the Bahamas. This is an intangible that cannot be measured in dollars but in quality of life.

Summing up - did we find a profitable market with our DSe 12m? Nope. Did we have sales? Yes. Unfortunately, these were in the fall of 2008 on the heels of the collapsing economy and many walked away from their contracts on more "normal" yachts, let alone our envelope-pushing DSe. Watching closely at the success of Ranger Tugs, I feel that their size/price is continuing to be viable - with the right package and price, I feel an e-boat will find a market.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:20 AM   #93
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Thanks Craig,
5 knots is to be considered but 7 knots w your boat on electrons is off the chart. But give 5 knots the credit it deserves. We go many hundreds of sea miles at 6 knots and 5 knots is just one knot slower.
The easiest way to make your boat more efficient is to remove weight. Lexan windows instead of glass. Less water and fuel ect ect.
However most electric launches are the same hulls as steamboat launches w exaggerated fantail sterns, nearly round midship sections, narrow beams and very low entry angles (sharp bows). These launches are much more efficient than Willards and even sailboats.
So efficiency wise your'e bark'in up a very big tree w a very small dog. But you can probably achieve 3 or 4 knots w the range you specify and have some out of the box boating fun.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:43 AM   #94
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And the Honda Insight with aluminum body panels, belly pan, low drag, got 73 mpg before the Prius was on the market. .
Few, if any, realize the impact that the Honda Insight had on the market place. I was keenly aware of the "independence" that was possible if the car was even mildly successful. Because of it's numerous shortcomings, however, it wasn't, which brings us to Marin's point. It took Toyota (as Bob pointed out) to manufacture a car that overcame those "shortcomings" and appeal to those of us that wanted an all electric vehicle that had none of the disadvantages of the Insight. The Prius became the largest selling hybrid in the world and the stimulus for all the other auto manufacturers that scrambled to offer their hybrids. I have owned two, but presently, after suffering from a serious bout of "patriotism", am driving a Ford Focus. (Not even close to the quality of a Prius but that's another story. At the present time I'm trying to figure out how best to rid myself of the Ford and lease another Prius.) Without rereading Marin's posts, but paraphrasing what he said, I believe he eluded to the fact that "all electric" cars are not that endearing to the masses yet. (Cost, range, speed, battery technology, etc.) And they are certainly not! It took a product such as the Prius to appeal to enough people so as to make it a commercially viable (profitable) endeavor and I believe that was the "crux" of his point, which I also subscribe to.

I don't know anyone who is trying to throw cold water on the the eventual success of an "all electric" vehicle. (Unless you throw big oil into the mix.) It's certainly not me! When one comes along and is economical to own, God willing, I will be among the first to have one. Just as I suffered the slings and arrows of owning a Prius when they first came out. (Possibly, some of you will remember that, as some of those arrows came from your quivers. ) When that day comes, the rapid transferring of that technology will appear in our power boats but that day, currently, is not on the radar.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:56 AM   #95
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Rueben, tinkerer coming from me is always a compliment and your work and engineering in this field is what inspired me to try envisioning what is possible. I thank you for it and your contributions here have been valuable to me.

Eric, 5 MPH is always adequate especially where I operate in the Delta. Around here if you have to go more than 10 miles to find what your looking for in an anchorage you are either too picky or impossible to please, take your pick. That attitude and my parameters would never cut it up in the PNW but I don't live in the PNW.

This boat will never run an inlet with powerful currents. It will never be out in anything that even resembles a 2' swell, and it will also never be more than 50 miles from it's home berth no matter what's powering it. The fact is none of that applies to my home waters. Eric if you are interested I have a paralel thread running at boatdesign.net under the Hybrid Propulsion sub forum. The folks there thought I was nuts at first too, but before the second page the harshest critics of the project admit that it's feasable. Trust me when I say those guys where and are tougher critics than anyone on this forum when it comes to electric propulsion. There are also a lot of engineering minds that crunch numbers better than most and do not deny the numbers.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:59 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by rjtrane View Post
Summing up - did we find a profitable market with our DSe 12m? Nope. Did we have sales? Yes. Unfortunately, *these were in the fall of 2008 on the heels of the collapsing economy and many walked away from their contracts on more "normal" yachts, let alone our envelope-pushing DSe. Watching closely at the success of Ranger Tugs, I feel that their size/price is continuing to be viable - with the right package and price, I feel an e-boat will find a market.
Can't wait to respond to this but am heading out the door to go to the Newport beach, CA Boat Show. I'll be certain to review the "all electric" crusing boats that are on display.

(* Coincidentally, the exact time frame when hybrid cars really took off.)
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:24 AM   #97
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Thanks for that Eeic, I had hoped this thread would smoke you out of that hole you've been hiding in up in Concrete lately. Good to hear from you. I'm going to do some real world testing throughout this summer to get some data points on HP required. If a force gauge falls out of the sky I'll try Reuben's tow rope idea if not my Livingston is gonna get a workout seeing what the GPS will read.

I suspect it will take less HP than most would have me believe to move this old lady along at about 5-7 MPH.
Craig – Just for S&G...

If you can (would want to) calculate hp needs from these stats that are as close as I can get (might be able to average everything out) it maybe could place a modicum of relationship to your Owens’ electric power needs before you perform tests; at least I hope so and look forward to learning your actual test results. I’ve not tried calculating hp expended in relationship to speed traveled from the following +/- stats (don’t really know how!). Eric or Bob might be good at that!

-Twin screw good condition 1977 350 cid 255 hp Mercruisers / WOT 4300 to 4400 rpm, 21 to 22 knots on GPS at slack tide, smooth water, no wind
-17 x 14 props
-Hard chine planing hull
-32’ lwl – my calc
-33” draft – mfg stat
-11 degree dead rise angle – mfg stat
-Parallel line to transom off its c/l at waterline - forward curved transom recesses 12” to each hull side junction – my calc measuring from straight rod
-12’6” max beam at gunnels – mfg stat
-18K to 19K lbs w/ a load – my calc off mfg stat of 17K
-Either one of two engines running 1850 to 1950 rpm... as per tachometers that I believe are relatively accurate, especially at relitively low rpm
-Off engine prop left freewheeling
-Clean bottom
- Speed attained: 5.5 to 6 knots on GPS at slack tide, smooth water, no wind
- 2 to 2.5 gph fuel use – my calc judging gallons replaced from fill up to fill up
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:38 AM   #98
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Walt I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Prius. What drives a man like you who could arguably have most any car he desires to own two of them then after taking a break desire another interests me as to why.

You can PM me with it if you wish.

Just saw that Art. Thanks for the numbers.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:14 PM   #99
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Craig,
Great! You'll get all you need to know on BoatDesign. After we get back from Canada I'll read the thread.

rjtrane,
If you want to fantasize about boats and cars just around the corner fine .. BUT they will only be in very small numbers and then small numbers and after many years almost certainly we will be all electric. But we have a great deal of oil left and we're discovering more all the time. And until people get smart about what Al Gore warned us about we will be powering boats and cars w oil.

Gas and diesel is way too cheap and the bottom line is cost until people realize the planet may really be in danger. So boats will get smaller and hulls will become even more efficient than sailboats and better and more efficient engines will come to pass so HUGE increases in the cost and availability of dino fuels will need to come to pass before electric boats and cars become commonplace. The immediate future is in more efficient hulls and engines ... mostly hulls.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:51 PM   #100
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I have never thought of myself as a "tinkerer," but I am assuming that is a compliment and I will take it in the manner in which it was said.
rjtrane - Yes - I take it as a compliment. In my mind "tinkering" is taking apart things and putting them back together, just to see how they work and then trying to improve on it, just because you love to do it. A mechanic or engineer repairs/builds/designs just to make a living.

You RJT - obviously love doing it.
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