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Old 04-16-2013, 11:44 PM   #41
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Nah Art. Just tryin' to see if I can run my old school boat on a new school battery

Rest of that's over this country boys head
Craig - That's bout what I believe most here are sayen, i.e. efficiently runnen old school classic boats on new school batts and chargers and e engines!

Guess you could say... we're fairly much... "in the same boat!" LOL
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:23 AM   #42
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Art,

I see long knife like hulls on a catamaran that is supporting 10~15 Kw of solar panels and substantial lithium energy storage. This would give ocean crossing capability and provide for all domestic energy needs. No need for propane, diesel, or gasoline for the dinghy. It is doable now, and Solar Wave is proof of concept.

Past attempts have merit for folks that don't want to go the sailboat route, and one that comes to mind is a trimaran called the Walker Wingsail, which I asked on the Cruiser's Forum if anyone remembers it. Remember the Walker Wingsail ? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
Bob

I wholly agree with you regarding that knife like hulls, catamaran and the like, will need to become more prevalent to production in their being more easily efficient to power with hybrid propulsion sources. However, that will take decades to make a marketing dent in the already nationally and internationally established boating industry.



The fact remains that millions of boaters would love a way to repower their old school, self contained power-boat-cruisers that they love and want to keep and wish to be enabled to economically use on a continual cruising basis. That said; so far, I’ve not seen a light at the end of the economically debilitating and ever increasing “fossil fuel cost” tunnel. Although quite a few boaters can say that fuel costs are but a small percent of “their” boat ownership’s total cost... there are many, many more boaters who do not agree for the simple reason that in addition to their other boating costs they just cannot afford the $5 to $6 per gallon fuel cost piled on top of all the other costs. That is exactly why the mid range boating market is experiencing accelerating, dire contractions.

And, to change the market from wanting to use current style boats will take much time...

As sunchaser posted: PS - Like many others, I do not want nor can I use a lightweight catamaran with LiX batteries and solar cells.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:02 AM   #43
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They could always repower with these offerings.........






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Old 04-17-2013, 01:17 AM   #44
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With the efficiencies of "economy of scale," one wonders why ships don't use solar power. They don't, because solar isn't practical for propulsion for most all motorboats.

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Old 04-17-2013, 02:20 AM   #45
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Art-if by "Hybrid" you mean some form of diesel-electric system, my research and experience has shown me that there is no substantial fuel savings to be had. I spent about 3 years off and on working with Bill Crealock on the design of a 65' trawler using a diesel electric system. The conclusions we drew from the experience of quite a few who have converted, the systems knowledge available at the time (some 5 years ago, Siemens has made such systems for over 90 years and can provide voluminous efficiency data) was that such systems do not provide any substantial, i.e. more than about 5-8%, fuel efficiency over traditional direct drive systems at least in a full displacement hull designed to operate within the same parameters as the traditional propulsion systems. What benefits there were involved decreased ER space needs and resulting increases in living space, the ability to place engines anywhere without regard to shaft location and ability to have fewer diesel powerplants in a large trawler (2 total instead of 2 propulsion and 2 generators).

In my opinion, the only truly innovative leap will be when some form of an all electric system, including energy storage, is cost effective and functions close to same as a traditional system. As has been noted here, currently, to be effective using an electric system requires a bit of a radical rethinking on the consumers' part as to what a boat should look like, how it should be built and what acceptable operating parameter are. That is going to take some time.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:58 AM   #46
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I was quite taken by this hybrid at the last Sanctuary Cove Boat Show. It did not pretend to be a major breakthrough, but did provide some interesting variations in the green trawler theme, without sacrificing practicality. In fact the ingenious v berth in the for'd cabin, which swings together to make a large double if required gave me ideas....
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:58 AM   #47
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Old 04-17-2013, 09:16 AM   #48
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As I see it!

Requirements to reinvigorate the small to mid range (28’ +/- to 55’ +/-) pleasure-power-boating industry:

Presented as a 10,000 foot elevation helicopter view...The following parameters are essential for repowering existing pleasure power-boats or manufacturing “new style” floating crafts (i.e. differently designed and powered boats)

1. Boat must be sea worthy enough to handle substantial sea conditions when under the control of a competent captain
2. Boat needs to be comfortable to live aboard for short to longer periods of time with ample self contained accommodations to make the stay aboard relatively easy to accomplish
3. Boat if an older existing design that is being repowered needs to reach at least a modicum of resale value to therein regain an acceptable percentage of repowering costs for the owner
4. Boat if a new build with new design and new power source needs to have ability to hold resale value for the owner
5. Boat new or old needs to have its “new power source” manageable for safety, maintenance, and long term use
6. Self contained pleasure cruiser “Power Boats” need to accomplish through water travel at a fuel cost of somewhere between $0.50 to $1.00 per mile

Number six (6) is the stickler. “Through water travel at a fuel cost of somewhere between $0.50 to $1.00 per mile” is what I see as the ratio in 2013 that somewhat relates to through water travel at a fuel cost per mile (in relation to income percentage) that existed before 21st Century’s considerable increase in gasoline and diesel fuel costs.

Annual Fuel Cost Figures (at an average of $1.00 per mile power boat fuel cost):

100 hrs travel time at 6 knots = 600 miles x $1.00 = $600.00
200 hrs travel time at 6 knots = 1,200 miles x $1.00 = $1,200.00
400 hrs travel time at 6 knots = 2,400 miles x $1.00 = $2,400.00

Those are the approximate annual fuel cost numbers that I see could blow life back into the power boat pleasure cruising industry. To develop/have relatively easily installed “affordable” and “long lasting” repowering capabilities for existing power boats to reach those annual fuel cost numbers is the BIG Trick!

The new designs of lesser weight, sleeker style, and new-power-source “new boats” will surely grow a foot hold in the pleasure boating industry... but... IMO, to regain (save) stability throughout the pleasure boating industry what is needed NOW (within the next couple to a few years) is the capability to correctly repower many hundreds of thousands existing boats!

The person or company that can develop a “new style” power source that can attain parameters outlined above could have a majority of the pleasure power boating industry’s Tiger by the Tail!!

Happy Power Boating Daze! - Art
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Old 04-17-2013, 10:22 AM   #49
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Art

The new power source must be cost effective and reliable. The thought of bettering a modern diesel with more complexity and fragile electronics in a marine environment is not a step forward. Having been involved with Diesel engine progress for 5 decades I can say progress has been astounding in terms of power, weight, reliability and economy. The bar is always being raised in this regard.

For hobbyists like Bob the battery toys are compelling. But to think that an attuned builder or buyer like THD will go with a hybrid one million dollar vessel to save 3 or 4 thousand dollars per year for a more complex system is not a path towards successful boat building.

To be really successful in gaining a breakthrough, read about Dashews FPB.
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Old 04-17-2013, 11:52 AM   #50
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Art

The new power source must be cost effective and reliable. The thought of bettering a modern diesel with more complexity and fragile electronics in a marine environment is not a step forward. Having been involved with Diesel engine progress for 5 decades I can say progress has been astounding in terms of power, weight, reliability and economy. The bar is always being raised in this regard.

For hobbyists like Bob the battery toys are compelling. But to think that an attuned builder or buyer like THD will go with a hybrid one million dollar vessel to save 3 or 4 thousand dollars per year for a more complex system is not a path towards successful boat building.

To be really successful in gaining a breakthrough, read about Dashews FPB.
SC

Breakthroughs in boat designs are great! Breakthroughs in fossil fueled engine designs are great! Attuned yacht/boat buyers and water-travelers with plenty of disposable capital to use at their discretion for spending large sums on nearly any boat they like, powered as they desire, to cruse for years on end are great! However, all that and a bag of chips amounts to just a small percentage of the pleasure boating industry!

This fact remains: In general, the pleasure power-boating industry can only be salvaged (returned to its former financial and boat-use glory) IF there becomes a way to affordably repower the million + + existing pleasure power-boats that currently sit languishing/deteriorating at docks around the globe. The “... through water travel at a fuel cost of somewhere between $0.50 to $1.00 per mile...” cost factor/numbers that I projected in post # 48 is realistic as a $$$ expense that could enable (even encourage) average income people to once again utilize (cruise) their beloved boats. The need for a soon to occur (within a year or three) revolutionary and affordable “new power source” repowering opportunity that the general-public pleasure boater can financially see clear to place into their much loved existing power-boat-cruisers is the only way I can see to save the general boating industry.

If it takes too long to find this “magical” new power source for repowering existing boats then it will become too late due to the fact that the existing boats will have “gone to seed” from lack of use and/or care while sitting unattended and basically disintegrating berthed at docks or on the hard.

That said: Pleasure boating will not totally disappear. The industry will however experience a substantial reduction (50%? / 75%?) in its depth and breadth. There will simply be: Less boaters / Less boat builders / Less boat repair yards / Less boat docking harbors / Less marine equipment manufacturers / Less boat sales dealers... Operative word here is “Less”... you can see downsizing already happening all over the industry! Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things??? I guess not! But, being an old salt having enjoyed boating for most of my life it will be unfortunate to see this industry down size so dramatically as well as to see the obviously reduced opportunities for millions of people to experience and enjoy the culture of pleasure boating... that I and millions of others have grown to enjoy so much.

Being an entrepreneur/businessman/industrialist who likes to harness opportunities when they become available... I’d like to add... The Inventor (i.e. “conceptor”) that accuratly comes up with the magic formula of a new and affordable power-source to reinvigorate the power-boating industry will have a Tiger by the Tail - - > especially if the design could be made to hold strong proprietary patent rights!

Happy Inventive Boating Daze, and, Good Luck! - Art
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:42 PM   #51
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This has indeed been a fascinating thread.

Art-I disagree that development of the ability to refit current vessels is a key to the future of the industry. There are so many intertwined issues in boat design/building/refits that I do not think that will ever be a huge market no matter what future development brings with respect to electric propulsion. One of the most interesting issues to me in a radical change in mechanical space v. living space. As I noted earlier, just with s diesel-electric hybrid, we calculated about a 25% or so increase in living space in the hull itself. If one looks at the space needs and the ability to accommodate those space needs in a full displacement hull, a fully electric system would provide even greater living space increases. For instance, the Siemens electric motors we looked at were about 24"x18"x15" and weighed about 275 lbs. One on each shaft. Virtually silent. Small enough to have living space built over them. Imagine your propulsion under your bunk! Batteries in the bilge, under the floors. 35% of your hull volume is no longer needed for mechanical space. In refits, it will be very, very expensive to reconfigure living space to take advantage of those gains. I would posit that not too many current owners will undertake the cost of that conversion. The increasing efficiency of diesels will make that cost/benefit argument tougher.

You mention a new boat's sea-keeping ability-the irony is that being untethered from the fuel dock will prompt more people to take longer journeys-the boatbuilding industry will have to come up with light, narrow designs that are increasingly more capable.

That said-technology marches on unabated-from debating wood v FRP, to cored v solid FRP, to diesel-electric to whatever comes next. The key to electric to me rests in two areas-increasing efficiency in solar to electric conversion and electric storage capacity. Increase the conversion efficiency and substantially increase storage capacity without decreasing safety (Boeing!) and without inordinate weight, and long-range, comfortable all electric trawlers will follow in short order.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:29 PM   #52
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THD

I agree with much that you say, disagree with some, and considerably agree with your last paragraph.

The part with which I considerably disagree: During repowering, just because less cubic feet of equipment is required in the ER, most owners of existing boats will not care to rearrange their boat’s living space at all... that cost you speak of will be a non plus. Myself, and other boaters I know are quite pleased with our boat’s general accommodations and layout. We’d be pleased to have things stay exactly the same and have all the “new” power equipment simply placed in same location as the old power equipment. Would be great if there were a bit extra storage space under deck where power equipment in stationed... but, even that is not at all what the average boat lover seeks to have occur.

IMO, what the general power boater, i.e. tens of thousands, seek to have happen to their existing power boat (which they and their families are often emotionally attached to) is affordability in repowering it with a unit that provides ongoing affordability at a reasonable cruise speed and with decent range. Therefore, it seems clear, that if there could be a successful “new power equipment” developed to accomplish what the general pleasure boater desires, i.e. being able to cruse at some 6 knots for $0.50 to $1.00 per mile fuel cost... then, and only then... the boating industry would have many thousand existing boat owners lined-up to get their boats repowered so they and their families can get affordably back into their boating experiences.

What I just said in no way means that over a period of the next couple decades new and improved power-boat designs won’t also gain strong positions in the pleasure boating industry, because they surely will! But, to save the pleasure power-boating industry during these make-or-break next several years it is the current owners of existing boats that need to be provided an alternative power source they can believe in, afford to install, and keep affording to run!

Just sayen! - - > Art
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #53
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Art-I appreciate the comments-it is an interesting and enlightening discussion. Too bad that so many boat builders tend to be very conservative when it comes to innovation.

As I was sitting this past weekend on my brother-in-law's deck on Lake Washington in Seattle listening to several "phallic" boats (my term for 60 knot powerboats) thunder up and down the lake with the engine roar echoing off the surrounding hills, I think the property owners along the lake would pay for an electric propulsion refit on those boats! Silence would indeed be golden!
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:54 PM   #54
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From another thread in TF, re electric bost engines...

Here's a goodie!

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/pdfs/nomadII.pdf
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:10 PM   #55
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Quite surprising - there has been three electric powered boat threads running simultaneusly on TF over the last couple days.

A sign the tide is starting to turn, perhaps?
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:22 PM   #56
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Quite surprising - there has been three electric powered boat threads running simultaneusly on TF over the last couple days.

A sign the tide is starting to turn, perhaps?
No. A sign that it is spring and old ideas get re-hatched. This too shall pass as the reality of boating season rises out of the shadows.

Interestingly on another thread some cannot grasp why we do not remove old dumb diesels and drop in an electric motor with no source of electricity reconciled.
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:22 PM   #57
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Art-I appreciate the comments-it is an interesting and enlightening discussion. Too bad that so many boat builders tend to be very conservative when it comes to innovation.

As I was sitting this past weekend on my brother-in-law's deck on Lake Washington in Seattle listening to several "phallic" boats (my term for 60 knot powerboats) thunder up and down the lake with the engine roar echoing off the surrounding hills, I think the property owners along the lake would pay for an electric propulsion refit on those boats! Silence would indeed be golden!
THD - I agree w/you re too loud speed boats... you’ve a good name for em - "phallic" lol

I've a friend with 29' Fountain that has some 750 hp in one o/d engine, she can go 100 mph! He's a master mechanic.... addicted to adding HP to every engine he has... cars, boats, trucks, ATV, motorcycles - you name it, he's got it. Also, the Fountain has the dual-way exhaust. Jumps everyone near when he starts that beast with exhaust pipes open. I've rode shotgun in it doing some 90 mph. Death is around the corner any faster than that... far as I'm concerned! He's told me it gets scary past 90 mph. There's no safety container on it like real racing boats have to save the pilot... if that Fountain flips by getting too much air under her... then, the Pearly Gates could well be the next marina boat occupants visit!
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:39 PM   #58
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Till better power source becomes reality... and for that matter... a well proven reality...!

We plan to have great summer cruising in and swimmen off of our twin screw classic tri cabin Tolly!

Wishen all tha best to all boaters!!
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:40 PM   #59
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No. A sign that it is spring and old ideas get re-hatched. This too shall pass as the reality of boating season rises out of the shadows.

Interestingly on another thread some cannot grasp why we do not remove old dumb diesels and drop in an electric motor with no source of electricity reconciled.
I don't disagree with you at all. One of the purposes of this thread is to reconcile the source power. LiFePo4 has been much touted but sizing information aside, operational information still seems part science/part dark art. To me right now at least I should say.
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Old 04-17-2013, 03:54 PM   #60
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Art-couldn't agree more on the summer. Today is one of those days that lets you know why you love the PNW! Mountains to the left of me, mountains to the right of me, Puget Sound in front of me and pure blue skies above me! Time to fire up those JD's!
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