Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-28-2013, 02:31 AM   #1
Guru
 
brian eiland's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine, FL
Country: USA & Thailand
Vessel Name: RunningTide
Vessel Model: 37 Louisiane catamaran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 890
ECU, Electronic Controlled Diesel Engines

I'm sure this subject has been discussed, but I could not find the specific discussion in my quick search. on another forum I had written back in 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian

Common-Rail Diesel Engines
On a more practical level I would like to enter a discussion of the newest electronics being adapted to diesel engines. In this great new day of electronics, we are seeing the emergence of the new comman-rail technologies that allow for very precise and powerful fuel injection at just the precise amount needed for any particular engine load condition..... Performance, economy, polution claims, etc, abound.

But whats happens when your out in the middle of the ocean, or in some remote fishing area, and something screws up the electrics!! We all know sea water and electricity do not mix very well. What do we do ??...carry spare computer boxes, and whatever else electronic spares. And how about the diagnostic problems as well as technician. These engines can't be 'jury-rigged' to run without their electronic brains
Here are a few postings I just ran across on another trawler forum:

Quote:

Based on my experience with a lightning strike, and the work it took to get it all running again, there is no apparent simple solution. For one thing there are several different computers running the engine. ($7,900 worth )

The tech has to order the new computers, and then comes to the boat, install the computers, hook the tech's laptop to the computers and then log into Cummins Headquarters for the programming.

Once the engine is running you may find that you have no controls. So then then shift and throttle control computer has to be replaced and has to be synced with the engine computers.

Did you know that each injector is controlled by its own board?

According to both Cummins and Deere, if you did carry a spare it would most likely get wiped out by the strike. But in any event, unless you have an Internet connection, the new computer probably cannot be programmed on the boat.

And, the number of strikes on boats is so low, that there is not much effort to solve this. As of last February Miami boat show, only two Cummins had been struck. Our strike was apparently the worse of the two strikes and it was quite a lengthy process to get it fixed. It took I think 6 tries, to get it right. The first time the tech logged into the Cummins system the old computers were so fried that they could not even start to fix it.

I hope a solution can be found. I like the engine, but right now advise people to by an older boat without the computer controls.. There are boats at sea all over the world with computer controlled engines, so I guess it is just a numbers game, a roll of the dice.

We learned that even our windshield wipers have control boards in them.
Cheers,
Tom
Quote:

The subject of ECU's came up in a conversation I had a a while ago talking to a long range trawler owner. The solution they have settled on is to have the ECU and it's supplementary components already programmed and then stored in a faradic cage, along with their backup navigation computers and gps units. Whether this will work if the stuff actually hits the fan only experience will tell. It's one of my major worries. I don't think I'd buy a boat that had a computer controlled engine and I'd want a manual back up for a electronic throttle and gear shift.

On a brighter note, I'm told that tier 2 Lugger engines will run, though not as well, with a broken computer
__________________
Advertisement

brian eiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 06:44 AM   #2
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
Many of the larger newer truck engines now feature a limp home mode.

But even this required electric on the system to sense throttle etc.

AS boat mfg are only interested in the lowest cost product , the use of wire mesh in/on the laminate as done on epoxy aircraft for lightning strike protection is not realistic to hope for..

Maybe this will be the return of metal boats?
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 08:05 AM   #3
Guru
 
swampu's Avatar


 
City: Biloxi, MS
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cajun Rose
Vessel Model: Biloxi Lugger
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,144
Sounds like a pain in the ass to me. You would think the little box that the computer is in would be somewhat protected. Even on land the engines have a potential for strike. I love my old 2 strokes, maybe more now.
swampu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 02:05 PM   #4
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
The hassle is the air police make unrealistic standards that are very hard to meet with out massive computer power, the loss of about 15% in mileage .

Think about the fact that a truck driving down I-95 in New Joisey is required to have a cleaner exhaust than what goes in the intake.

Every state enjoys the extra fuel tax of less efficient engines ,air polution , ethanol, doesnt matter as long as extra tax is extorted.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2013, 05:59 PM   #5
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
The 550 KW emergency generator at our office is even computer controled. We had a lightening strike to a large tree in the parking lot and it blew the Computerized Control Module. Since the building itself had not been struck nobody thought to check the generator. We had a power outage several weeks later and found ourselves running on UPS battery power. The tech's couldn't even manually start the generator.
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 11:39 AM   #6
Guru
 
ancora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,489
The scary part about ECUs is the scarcity of replacement units when they go bad. That is the biggest complaint on Boatdiesel.com. There's gotta be something to the old K.I.S.S. theory.
ancora is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 12:17 PM   #7
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edelweiss View Post
We had a power outage several weeks later and found ourselves running on UPS battery power.
No one noticed it wasn't performing the automatic test runs?

Even my little standby generator at home fires up and tests itself once a week and lets me know how it's doing.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 01:29 PM   #8
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post

No one noticed it wasn't performing the automatic test runs?
How common is that feature? The Cat man gave me 3 hours of training 2 weeks ago on my new 1 megawatt unit and mentioned nothing of an automated test run. My test runs are manual but we can get a monitor service that sends emails if it detects a fault.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 02:23 PM   #9
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
[QUOTE=RickB;176143]No one noticed it wasn't performing the automatic test runs?
QUOTE]

Good question, so I asked the Tech supervisor.
It's setup for an autostart, 30 minute run, and shut down, on the 1st and 15th of each month as recommended. The lightning storm occurred on Sept. 3rd and the next power outage was Sept 9th.
Under normal circumstances the electronics would have reported a system failure even without the generator running. However, the lightning strike killed the computerized reporting components as well.
Murphy’s Law at work!!
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2013, 03:11 PM   #10
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 954
There are 4 good things about diesel engines:
Economical
Durable
Non explosive fuel
Simple

Three out of four still ain't bad
Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 07:07 AM   #11
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
The problem is as the World Air Police continue with the climate change HOAX , the size of engines (smaller and smaller) dragged into the buroRATS Tier II and tier III requirements will keep expanding.

Eventually there will be no simple mechanical diesel engines mfg new , so the complexity and extra fuel burn will be part of all boating .

Looked at a large outboard lately?

Some in the trucking industry has rebelled and owner operators are purchasing >gliders<,, a brand new truck with no engine or transmission , and installing a rebuilt pre 2003 power

15-20% better fuel mileage , repairable , and no exhaust urine tank to pay to fill .

The big companies cant do this, so get a batch of trucks , drive them 6 months and quickly sell of the dogs and garage queens.

This might be a big help in power boats IF the mfg have to create boats that can R&R the engines with ease.

Lobster boats do it frequently , its just a slightly different requirement for the fellow that draws up the boat.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2013, 01:58 PM   #12
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPseudonym View Post
How common is that feature? The Cat man gave me 3 hours of training 2 weeks ago on my new 1 megawatt unit and mentioned nothing of an automated test run. My test runs are manual but we can get a monitor service that sends emails if it detects a fault.
------------------------------
In large communications systems, where you have many remote mountain top sites or unmanned sites, automated start, stop, and exercise has been an industry standard for years. And to be accredited by the various oversite groups it's a requirement. The "report back" features are more recent, but very important. It's nice to know that the generator not only started and stopped, but that it stopped as scheduled and not because a pump failed, it over heated or ran out of fuel. We used to have a saying that, "A generator is only as reliable as the last time it ran."
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 06:37 AM   #13
Guru
 
brian eiland's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine, FL
Country: USA & Thailand
Vessel Name: RunningTide
Vessel Model: 37 Louisiane catamaran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 890
Use the stop buttons, not the keys!

....couple other stories from another subject thread



Use the stop buttons, not the keys!
On 2 different 65 Marquis with DD MTU V10 1500hp Common Rail Engines ECMs failed due to the engines being shut down with the Key Switch as opposed to using the stop buttons. It has something to do with the key switch immediately cutting electrical power to the ECM with the engine running. The stop button shuts the engine down but power to the ECM is not interrupted. Maybe someone more technical can explain it better. I just wanted to pass on my experience.

The last time it happened I was on a delivery on a boat with bad fuel requiring filter changes every 4-6 hours. The engines were shut down, filters changed and away we'd go. After one of the stops one of the engines wouldn't restart. 0 Voltage was shown on the EDM. We limped into Southport, NC. Thankfully Covington DDA had 2 running takeouts in the shop. They brought an ECM and got us back on the road. During their diagnosis and interview with the owner who was doing the driving he stated he always used the keys to shut down the engines, not the stop buttons.
brian eiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 06:39 AM   #14
Guru
 
brian eiland's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine, FL
Country: USA & Thailand
Vessel Name: RunningTide
Vessel Model: 37 Louisiane catamaran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 890
Use the Emergency Stop

On a delivery of a new cruisers 447 sport Sedan with Yanmars (40 engine hours) I had a situation where one of the engines would go to full power with no rhyme or reason. The engine Company diagnosed it as a failed electronic part on the fuel injection pump that at the time could not be bought separately. A new Pump was flown in and replaced. After a successful sea trial the mechanic left and we shoved off only to have the issue again. This time they blamed it on computer / fuel pump communication / software programing errors. It took a few days to get the pump to communicate properly with the computer on the engine. After a lengthy and seemingly successful sea trial the mechanic left, we got some sleep and shoved off the next morning before the sun. The "phenomenon" returned approximately 4 hours later. We limped into the next port and the boat was left to the local Yanmar dealer. It took a week but they eventually settled on a short in the wiring harness. The wiring harness was ordered, replaced and that solved the problem. The Emergency stops did work when the engine "took off". Just sharing in hope that it helps someone out of a bad situation in the future.
brian eiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 06:41 AM   #15
Guru
 
brian eiland's Avatar
 
City: St Augustine, FL
Country: USA & Thailand
Vessel Name: RunningTide
Vessel Model: 37 Louisiane catamaran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 890
Lightening Experience

Late Last May, moments after securing and shutting down a severe squall line passed over and lightning struck the water very near the boat according to eye witnesses at the Yacht Club Bar. I was struggling with enclosure zippers and thought I saw it hit a building across the ICW. Regardless the next morning, engines running, lines off the Port Main Engine (16V2000 1800hp on a 100' Hatteras Motor Yacht) wouldn't go into gear. Long story short the ERIM (Engine Remote Interface Module) located in the engine room was fried by the lightning strike. It was a Holiday weekend, we sourced an ERIM an hour away and made arrangements to have it and a mechanic on board Tuesday morning. The part was $6000 and we all know what mechanics cost. He was only on board for a few hours and away we went. When I got out the inlet I turned on the stabilizers and the boat went into a hard stbd list revealing where the lightning entered the boat. One stabilizer board fried. We took that stabilizer off line and pinned it centered, and finished the trip with one which actually worked quite well. The damaged ERIM was sent out for repair which took some time but cost around $700. So we now have a spare which is carried aboard. I don't think it could be damaged by a future strike sitting in a insulated bag in a box and not connected to anything. The lightning also fried a power supply in a Raymarine Display. For those that don't know and for future reference. On the Engine Displays the words, Neutral, Forward, Astern are displayed accordingly with shift lever movements. The absence of these words on the display and lack of gearbox engagement point to an ERIM Failure.
brian eiland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2013, 12:38 PM   #16
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancora View Post
The scary part about ECUs is the scarcity of replacement units when they go bad. That is the biggest complaint on Boatdiesel.com. There's gotta be something to the old K.I.S.S. theory.
The other scary part is using a tech who possibly doesn't have the training/information/software or cabling to access and truly determine an ECU failure!!
__________________
Steve Point Cadet/ Biloxi, Mississippi USA
*Present 42 twin 135 Lehmans
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 01:40 PM   #17
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
Even more scary is a dummy that arc welds anything on the boat, with out proper precautions!
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012