Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-05-2019, 09:43 AM   #1
Guru
 
wkearney99's Avatar
 
City: Bethesda, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Solstice
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 47 Eastbay FB
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,067
Ducted diesel injection

Interesting development, especially the potential for retrofitting to older engines.

https://share-ng.sandia.gov/news/res...ted_injection/
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
-- Bill Kearney
2005 Eastbay 47 FB - Solstice
wkearney99 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2019, 11:12 AM   #2
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,454
Neat idea! Will follow!
__________________

Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2019, 01:16 PM   #3
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Country: US
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,671
It's not something you'll see soon in small marine engines. And never in older style engines.
Lepke is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 10:00 AM   #4
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,454
I don't think this concept could be easily retrofitted to existing engines. One point of modern design is for injector to have smallest practical diameter to make room for valves and coolant flow. The tip of this injector will be a good bit larger in diameter.

The whole combustion chamber will need to be designed around this. But existing blocks probably used as is. Piston bowl shape and head geometry will be different.

I bet there are a lot of engine mfr's and labs messing around with this!!

If it really reduces soot and NOx formation, it really can be a game changer.

No real relevance to us with smaller older mechanical engines. Soot and NOx? What are those? For modern large commercial engines, and modern CR engines of any flavor, this could be real.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 03:11 PM   #5
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,155
I think the article alluded that retrofit would only be on much larger engines that cost millions. In that case a new head or other major rework might make sense.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 05:01 PM   #6
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,356
This is why we leave government out of (nearly) everything, if left alone, the market finds solutions; these injectors and that new prop spring to mind. Soon we will be able to boat guilt-free (I just threw that in as I’ve never met a guilty boater).
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2019, 10:02 PM   #7
Guru
 
wkearney99's Avatar
 
City: Bethesda, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Solstice
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 47 Eastbay FB
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
This is why we leave government out of (nearly) everything, if left alone, the market finds solutions; these injectors and that new prop spring to mind.
You DO realize this came out of a government funded lab, right?
__________________
-- Bill Kearney
2005 Eastbay 47 FB - Solstice
wkearney99 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 01:53 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands
Country: canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 306
ducted injection? does anyone comprehend how it works?

The bunsen burner is burning free flowing gas, that I understand.
But our diesel internal combustion engines inject fuel and air which does not ignite until compressed.
How is this ducted injection injecting the optimal air/fuel, which of course will cut down on soot, differently than current systems (in newest engines).
sounds similar to gas engines running leaner and cleaner
__________________
SteveK
1971 Grand Banks 36 Classic Hull 255
Soo-Valley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 07:30 AM   #9
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 19,920
"Mueller says that injectors in a traditional diesel engine create local igniting mixtures that contain two to 10 times more fuel than is needed for complete combustion."


The hassle is the fuel is sprayed in as droplets and has to vaporize to be burned.


Anything that will better vaporize the fuel is good.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 08:26 AM   #10
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,454
I think the basic injection is the same, liquid under high pressure shot into the combustion chamber. What is added is a small "duct" where the fuel en-trains air from the inlet side and the ensuing turbulence in the duct encourages mixing. This is much like the Ricardo pre-combustion chamber developed in the 1920's-1930's and still used in our little Kubota's et. al., but without the flow and heat transfer losses (bad) there that penalize efficiency. The duct structure will be right in the cylinder combustion chamber (piston bowl, however shaped) and won't create flow losses on the compression and firing stroke like the Kubota. The only flow losses will be from the injection flow which is lost energy anyway.

I wish I came up with the idea!! I hope it works as well as discussed.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 08:46 AM   #11
Guru
 
wkearney99's Avatar
 
City: Bethesda, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Solstice
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 47 Eastbay FB
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley View Post
ducted injection? does anyone comprehend how it works?

The bunsen burner is burning free flowing gas, that I understand.
But our diesel internal combustion engines inject fuel and air which does not ignite until compressed.
How is this ducted injection injecting the optimal air/fuel, which of course will cut down on soot, differently than current systems (in newest engines).
sounds similar to gas engines running leaner and cleaner
The link does explain all of it.

But the basic gist is they analyzed how emitting the fuel into the chamber actually combusts. And figured out that arranging ducts to shape the flow in a different manner can cut down significantly on the amount of pollutants created. That and it would be within the realm of something that could be retrofitted to existing engine technologies. Whether that extends all the way down to the engines used in boats remains to be seen.
__________________
-- Bill Kearney
2005 Eastbay 47 FB - Solstice
wkearney99 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 11:01 AM   #12
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post

I wish I came up with the idea!! I hope it works as well as discussed.


Me too. Lots of bogus “inventions” come around, but this one actually seems to have merit.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 11:08 AM   #13
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,155
Just to dispel one
Possible misconception, a diesel does’t inject an
Air/fuel mixture, only fuel. Air is drawn in and compressed causing it to heat up. The fuel is then sprayed into the hot air where it burns. And diesels aren’t sensitive to air fuel mixture the way gas engines are. There just needs to be enough air for complete combustion. More air is fine. It’s only a problem when there is too little and then you incomplete combustion and black smoke. This is why turbos are so effective with diesels because they allow you to jamb pack a ton of air into each stroke, allowing you to burn more fuel and generate more power.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 11:16 AM   #14
Senior Member
 
gsholz's Avatar
 
City: PDX
Country: Northwest
Vessel Model: GB 52 Europa
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 297
There is always a surplus of air/oxygen in diesel engine operation vs gasoline engine. A diesel engine will always run lean. The trick is to get the air and the fuel to mix appropriately. That is why injectors use high pressure to "atomize" the fuel, have multiple ports to distribute the fuel, the piston surface, combustion chamber and air inlets are shaped to encourage turbulence and why electronic engines may have multiple injection events. There is a trade-off between extreme turbulence (small, high-speed air inlets) vs volumetric efficiency (friction losses). It will be interesting to see how the new approach makes that trade-off.
gsholz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 12:21 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands
Country: canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 306
assembly of four to six small tubes — or ducts — directing fuel mixture from the injector to the points of ignition.
This sounds like premixing air/fuel before injecting

traditional diesel engine create local igniting mixtures that contain two to 10 times more fuel than is needed for complete combustion
“Installing the ducts enables us to achieve diesel combustion that forms little to no soot, because the local igniting mixtures contain less excess fuel.”
This sounds like using less fuel, an option I thought was already available with a tuned engine.

Overall, to me it sounds like eliminating a separate air and fuel intake, premixing air/fuel and then injecting the correct balanced amount. So leaner/cleaner burn.
__________________
SteveK
1971 Grand Banks 36 Classic Hull 255
Soo-Valley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 01:49 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Mischief Managed's Avatar
 
City: Raymond NH
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Mischief Managed II
Vessel Model: 1992 Tollycraft 44 CPMY
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley View Post
assembly of four to six small tubes — or ducts — directing fuel mixture from the injector to the points of ignition.
This sounds like premixing air/fuel before injecting

traditional diesel engine create local igniting mixtures that contain two to 10 times more fuel than is needed for complete combustion
“Installing the ducts enables us to achieve diesel combustion that forms little to no soot, because the local igniting mixtures contain less excess fuel.”
This sounds like using less fuel, an option I thought was already available with a tuned engine.

Overall, to me it sounds like eliminating a separate air and fuel intake, premixing air/fuel and then injecting the correct balanced amount. So leaner/cleaner burn.



My understanding is that it's more like the nozzle on a propane torch. Rather than have the injector squirt fuel directly into the combustion chamber, this injects fuel into a tube which, due to venturi effect, draws air (the air that is in the combustion chamber already) into the tube behind the fuel. The air mixes with the fuel and comes out the business end of the nozzle burning cleanly and very hot. It's incredibly simple and clever. If it works as well as they say, and the technology is licensed for a reasonable fee, this should become the norm in future diesel engines. It might even even be applicable to gasoline engines.
Mischief Managed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 02:10 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands
Country: canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mischief Managed View Post
My understanding is that it's more like the nozzle on a propane torch. Rather than have the injector squirt fuel directly into the combustion chamber, this injects fuel into a tube which, due to venturi effect, draws air (the air that is in the combustion chamber already) into the tube behind the fuel. The air mixes with the fuel and comes out the business end of the nozzle burning cleanly and very hot. It's incredibly simple and clever. If it works as well as they say, and the technology is licensed for a reasonable fee, this should become the norm in future diesel engines. It might even even be applicable to gasoline engines.
That is now my understanding too. This will eliminate intake valves as currently used drawing in air on the downstroke. Premixed air/fuel injected.
__________________
SteveK
1971 Grand Banks 36 Classic Hull 255
Soo-Valley is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 04:14 PM   #18
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,356
A government funded lab is a far cry from mandating emission levels or making us all buy compact fluorescent bulbs. I think you missed the point.
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 05:52 AM   #19
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley View Post
That is now my understanding too. This will eliminate intake valves as currently used drawing in air on the downstroke. Premixed air/fuel injected.
No, the intake stroke and related valves are the same as a traditional engine. No injection of premixed air/fuel. The only thing changed is nozzles entraining air local to the injector tip.

How well it works in the field is yet to be seen. These injection events are very brief so getting the air moving in the nozzle might be limited by simple inertia, especially in high rpm engines. Less an issue in big slow engines, which might be the focus of this technology.

On small engines, packaging and installing the nozzle may require a fair amount of redesign of the injector mounting in the cylinder head. It would require a physically larger injector tip.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 08:11 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
Capitaine R's Avatar
 
City: St James City/Punta Gorda
Country: U.S.A.
Vessel Name: Charlie Noble
Vessel Model: 32 Nordic Tug
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 360
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
You DO realize this came out of a government funded lab, right?
You mean tax payer funded lab.
__________________

__________________
The best way to find out is get her out on the ocean, because if anything is going to happen it's going to happen out there.
"Captain Ron"
Capitaine R is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×