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Old 01-31-2015, 09:24 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Food or thought on vaccum gauges:

Was thinking about this after consuming an adult beverage (beer), so this may not be throughly developed. My fuel tanks are about 28" tall. For the sake of the discussion, let's assume the lift pump height is at the middle of the tanks. The vaccum gauge is reading inches of vaccum. To my understanding, an inch of vaccum, if there is no restriction in the filter element, would be to lift the fuel from 1" below the level of the lift pump in the tank up to the lift pump. If the fuel level was 10" below the lift pump, the gauge would show 10" of vaccum. If the fuel level was above the lift pump, there would actually be a positive pressure in the filter and at the inlet to the lift pump. Again, assuming that my lift pump is at the middle level of my 28" tank, does that mean that the theoretical reading on my separator gauge could be anywhere from 14" of positive pressure to 14" of vaccum with a clean unobstructed element? If this is correct, with 3/4 full tank I could have 7" of diffential vaccum (difference between filter inlet and outlet with a mostly clogged filter) and show no vaccum on my gauge. Is this correct or am I missing something?

Ted
A proper vacuum gauge will read in inches of mercury if you are in English units. A perfect vacuum is 29.9 inches of mercury or 14.7 psi at sea level. Inches of fuel would have to be converted to inches of mercury for your math to fall into place.
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:44 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post

I change the Racor as soon as I see any movement of the needle off it's peg.
And as I've said before, while I have used both 10 micron and 2; I pretty much run the 2, as I see no downside as long as there is no vacumn, and when there is, I change the Racor
Why not run a much larger primary? 2 microns it seems would just lead to lots of filter changes and engine stoppages in the wrong place. I and many others run 30 micron Racors as primaries. Our two per engine on engine filters are about 5 microns (Cat specs) with a high beta number and lots of capacity.

If one has a common rail the normal setup is 30, 10 and on engine using a good set of filters with known acceptable beta numbers. As indicated in a previous post Racors as used in the old centrifugal style 500, 900 or 1000 series units have lower beta numbers.

Parker sells setups to compete with Fleetguard/Cummins and Cat filters on a Beta number basis if one were so inclined. A look at these types of filters will show several ways for determination of water.
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Old 01-31-2015, 09:48 AM   #123
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The interesting thing I found in a Racor manual is that they recommend using a 2 micron filter if water intrusion is a risk. Likely had something to do with the pore size and effectiveness of the aquabloc coating.


I'll cut and past after work.
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Old 01-31-2015, 11:38 AM   #124
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Even with my 10 gph Cat 3208s...I have only had one filter ever restrict normal cruising in tens of thousands of miles recreationally and many more commercially.

If I ever travel outside normal US recreational travel circles where volume and and quality fuel is not the norm....than a different filter setup will be in the cards.

But then micron setups I have used with US fuel hasn't let me or my commercial buddies down yet. When the fuel is suspect, the filters are changed and the fuel polished before the next trip. We do at least have that luxury. Only once did a friend of mine have an issue where he went up in micron size because of the trashed fuel he was getting from a coastal dredge outfit...and even then filter changes were almost a daily even as engine shutdown was not an option so it didn't matter what size..they all were clogging.
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Old 01-31-2015, 12:28 PM   #125
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Years ago I remember reading in sailing cruising mags about people using a Baja filter to pre filter fuel as it was being taken onboard. It appeared to take out the "sticks and stones" but more importantly water. It also let you see the fuel going in. I have never used one. Does anyone here have experience?

Fwiw, my existing systems consists of a Racor R120 30 micron pre filter and a 10 micron on engine with no gages. I just (3 days ago) purchased a Seamax double double system and will have a 20/10 primary with gage, 10/5 secondary with gage and a 10 on engine. Alaska is in our future plans (from CA) so I just wanted something more robust.
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Old 01-31-2015, 01:11 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Food or thought on vaccum gauges:

Was thinking about this after consuming an adult beverage (beer), so this may not be throughly developed. My fuel tanks are about 28" tall. For the sake of the discussion, let's assume the lift pump height is at the middle of the tanks. The vaccum gauge is reading inches of vaccum. To my understanding, an inch of vaccum, if there is no restriction in the filter element, would be to lift the fuel from 1" below the level of the lift pump in the tank up to the lift pump. If the fuel level was 10" below the lift pump, the gauge would show 10" of vaccum. If the fuel level was above the lift pump, there would actually be a positive pressure in the filter and at the inlet to the lift pump. Again, assuming that my lift pump is at the middle level of my 28" tank, does that mean that the theoretical reading on my separator gauge could be anywhere from 14" of positive pressure to 14" of vaccum with a clean unobstructed element? If this is correct, with 3/4 full tank I could have 7" of diffential vaccum (difference between filter inlet and outlet with a mostly clogged filter) and show no vaccum on my gauge. Is this correct or am I missing something?

Ted
After doing some research, the Racor gauge is calibrated in inches of Mercury and there is about 13" of diesel fuel to every inch of Mercury. So for my tanks the vaccum gauge might show 1" of vaccum when the tanks are near empty.

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Old 01-31-2015, 10:14 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Why not run a much larger primary? 2 microns it seems would just lead to lots of filter changes and engine stoppages in the wrong place. I and many others run 30 micron Racors as primaries. Our two per engine on engine filters are about 5 microns (Cat specs) with a high beta number and lots of capacity.

If one has a common rail the normal setup is 30, 10 and on engine using a good set of filters with known acceptable beta numbers. As indicated in a previous post Racors as used in the old centrifugal style 500, 900 or 1000 series units have lower beta numbers.

Parker sells setups to compete with Fleetguard/Cummins and Cat filters on a Beta number basis if one were so inclined. A look at these types of filters will show several ways for determination of water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
The interesting thing I found in a Racor manual is that they recommend using a 2 micron filter if water intrusion is a risk. Likely had something to do with the pore size and effectiveness of the aquabloc coating.


I'll cut and past after work.
Maybe some of you have seen this before, but it was new to me:

Racorís 2 micron filter medium should
only be used in final or secondary
filters where the fuel is first filtered by
a primary filter. The primary filter for
a 2 micron final filter should use a 10
micron medium. The exception in using
a 2 micron filter in place of a primary
filter is to obtain high-efficiency water
separation, and is usually used in marine
applications where the fuel supply may
be cleaner but also may contain water
more often. If the installation can allow
the use of a filter large enough, then a 2
micron filter can serve in a system as the
only filter in that system.
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Old 02-01-2015, 06:12 AM   #128
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My Racors, as with many other vessels with good draft, are lower than the fuel tanks so gravity works just fine to refill. Have you ever found water in the Racor? If so, where did it come from?
I have not read every single post in this...got to page 4.....BUT...to answer this question.... If I could not have seen water in my bowl, I very likely would have trashed an engine. The water came from a ruptured fuel cooler. A LOT of water. As soon as the symptoms appeared(amazingly the boat continued to run...but not well), a quick glance down below and I immediately knew what was wrong. I did not know at the moment where it was coming from but I certainly knew I was in trouble by the "strawberry milk" colored stuff in the filter bowl. Have to remove and dump a filter just to see what is going on is just plain stupid if you ask me. The more information, the better. I do not know how Y'all can argue with that.
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Old 02-01-2015, 07:31 AM   #129
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I have used a Baja filter (a nice monel version made by Rybovitch for sport fish) and found gropsch and water at different fuel stops all along the Atlantic.

It slows down filling , even in a larger size , but it does work to catch water and trash.

The fuel stops that complain the most .>> thats not required,,our fuel is clean<<,, are usually the dirty fuel locations.

One was so insistiant his fuel was filtered,, that after paying ,
I dumped the 5 or 6 table spoons of crud in the dock , telling hom it did not exist , he has filters.

Since it was a sail boat 20G at the usual fill, I shudder to think of what a larger tank would have been filled with.

Much on board water comes from fuel deck fittings that have not been maintained.

Change your O ring lately?
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Old 02-01-2015, 08:00 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
Maybe some of you have seen this before, but it was new to me:

Racorís 2 micron filter medium should
only be used in final or secondary
filters where the fuel is first filtered by
a primary filter. The primary filter for
a 2 micron final filter should use a 10
micron medium. The exception in using
a 2 micron filter in place of a primary
filter is to obtain high-efficiency water
separation, and is usually used in marine
applications where the fuel supply may
be cleaner but also may contain water
more often. If the installation can allow
the use of a filter large enough, then a 2
micron filter can serve in a system as the
only filter in that system.
Umm, took the words right out of my mouth.

Well, really Marin's mouth, since last year he had a persuasive argument for the 2 micron AND since it does not restrict the fuel IN MY SYSTEM any more than 10 micron, why not use the 2 and keep the stuff as far away form the engine as I can.??

Now, if anyone remembers, in the late spring of 2013, I did post this question because it was the one and only time I did have an engine stoppage because the filter was clogged.

I quickly turned the lever and the engine started right up again.

So, that was when i discovered all the black stuff in the filter, BUT not in the tank itself. Which is why I am such an advocate of Fuel Polishing.

I had polished that fuel as I came up the east coast and this was only the second day in Long Island Sound, after 220 hours of engine time.

I did not change that Racor.

The lesson learned was that I should have been changing the Racors initially far more often to see what was coming out.
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Old 02-01-2015, 08:03 AM   #131
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Much on board water comes from fuel deck fittings that have not been maintained.

Change your O ring lately?
Yes I have, thank you very much. Both were in need of replacement. Spares for all fillers are now onboard and this item is now on my annual checklist.
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:30 AM   #132
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If one is really wanting to clean fuel, here is one I have used, the 300 gpm unit that is part of a +10,000 gpd fuel island

CAT filter PEHJ0156-02(low res).pdf
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Old 02-01-2015, 10:46 AM   #133
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On the last boat I ran this is what we used to keep the fuel on board clean:

http://www.marstechusa.com/MAB100.pdf
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Old 02-01-2015, 11:00 AM   #134
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On the last boat I ran this is what we used to keep the fuel on board clean:

http://www.marstechusa.com/MAB100.pdf

Great units, I'll post some pictures of an AL with associated Racors I saw last week.
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Old 02-02-2015, 10:35 PM   #135
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Baker,
Are the fuel coolers you refer to the "Cummins On Engine"? These are the ones located on the port side of each engine. Was there any indication these were suspect? What was the age of the coolers? These are the only items I did not remove, clean and inspect on my just completed raw water side service. I am now questioning my wisdom. I have heard of some folks who just remove the fuel coolers and just use the fuel tanks as the heat sink.
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Old 02-02-2015, 10:57 PM   #136
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There are too many dam posts here for me to read all sooo. What ever you use consider the wisdom(not mine) of using a screw on mud filter with a large capacity, a closed loop OB bulb priming SX, and vacuum gauges on the mud filter. All this installed prior to any other filtration. If you don't know what I am talking about another learning exercise opportunity. Go to Seaboard Marine and to Tony's tips and read about filtration Tony's way. The white vertical units with gauges on top are screw on the first in line the high capacity mud filter the second 10 mic this is before the two motor mounted units. This is common rail and needs good filtration. The closed loop prime SX is also visible.
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Old 02-02-2015, 11:38 PM   #137
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Well they are good at self promotion and writing marketing copy I'll give them that.
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Old 02-02-2015, 11:56 PM   #138
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Well they are good at self promotion and writing marketing copy I'll give them that.
I may not be too old to learn so tell me what don't you like about a multi step filtration system with bulb priming capability?
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Old 02-03-2015, 12:27 AM   #139
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I may not be too old to learn so tell me what don't you like about a multi step filtration system with bulb priming capability?
Nothing much. Why?
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Old 02-03-2015, 12:41 AM   #140
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Nothing much. Why?
Just had the suspicion you saw a problem. I have been wrong before and it will probably happen again sorry.
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