Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 01-22-2015, 11:08 AM   #61
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemier View Post
Here's our set-up.
The first photo is the fuel distribution panel. In the foreground is the Supply & Return manifolds (Return above, Supply below). In the background in the corner, is the fuel Transfer manifold. We have 5 fuel tanks which hold a total of 2500 gals of diesel. One of the tanks is used as a dedicated Day Tank (this one is 300 gals). Any fuel that enters the Day Tank is first sent through a 2 micron fuel polishing Racor. (The tall one to the right in the second photo). All 4 engines and one diesel heater take polished fuel from the Day Tank only. The 2 Racors to the left are dedicated to the main engine, via a Dual-Racor arrangement. (notice the vaccuum gauge inbetween the racors). The third Racor in the picture filters fuel for the Gen-sets & wing engine. All Racors are 10 micron, apart from the 2 micron fuel polisher.

So, the fuel is polished and sent to the Day Tank. From the Day Tank, they pass through a 10 micron Racor, and then onto the On-engine filters. So far, this set-up has served us well.

Having a robust fuel filter / management system goes a long way to making my mid-transit head space right. While I do appreciate the simplicity of the spin-on's, I prefer the visual piece-of-mind of the clear bowl Racors more. I can lift out the racors and clearly see what crap has been caught, but with my spin-on (On-engine) filters, I try to look, but end up just tossing them summizing they've done their job and it's 'time' for the change.
Wow! That's impressive. My system, while no where near as impressive, embraces most of the same principles. After my refit, all fuel will be added to the port tank. Polished through a Racor 1000 with 30 micron filter and transfered as needed to the starboard tank. Engine and genset both draw off the starboard tank only. Engine has a dual Racor 1000 system and the genset a smaller Racor separator. Either tank can be polished and fuel can be transfered in either direction. In an emergency, fuel can be added from a fuel dock to the starboard tank, and in an emergency the tanks can be gravity equalized (without a pump). As the tanks are each 350 gallons and the engine has a maximum fuel consumption of only 6 gph, I don't envision having to do fuel management while under way. Wished I could have incorporated a day tank into my engine space, but just couldn't find a place for the appropriate size tank.

Ted
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 11:45 AM   #62
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Racors as we know and love them take way to long to change out, thus their declining popularity.
I'm sure that spin on filters do an adequate job of filtering but the duel filter set up of the Racors, with their sight bowl and pressure gauge, as an early warning system, wins hands down IMO. As far as how long does it take to get a clean filter on line? How long does it take to turn a handle 180 degrees?

I don't have a duel Racor on my boat (yet) but it's in the works.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Duel Racors.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	125.0 KB
ID:	36711  
__________________

__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 11:53 AM   #63
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
I suprised at both of you, in jumping to conclusions.

1. Sunchaser, I'm sure your filters are seeing far more that 4 gph, in fact I would guess it's a multiple of that amount by a factor of 3 to 6. Which is one of the reasons the filters are so effective.

2. CP THe fact that everyone is using spin on filter applications in new vehicles, gens, etc, just means they are cheaper to build and install. No more, no less.

I also wonder about the efficiency of something that I can not tell what it's doing. That spin on filter that's made in China, who knows what's actually inside each one.

The pig in a poke is alive and well the 21 century.
Each of my engines has a Racor 900 in front of it. My normal cruise net consumption is around 2 to 2.5 gph per engine. Tank return is about the same at low RPM and about double at higher RPM. Racor rates the 900 at a 30 to 100 gph flowrate.

I repeat as I said in a previous post that I recently saw a really neat fuel polishing system using Racor 1000s and an Alfa Laval. The engine fuel filters - those that protect the engine's fuel pump and injectors - were spin ons.

Nemier, what no picture of your on engine spin on that is doing the real unseen dirty work. Even PH makes spin ons, millions of them, or they would be out of the filter business. Mess around with using the wrong filters here and a fuel injection system will bite the dust quite prematurely.

Not too many years ago the filter manufacturers adopted the beta number terminology. It gets away from a simple micron designation for a filter and gets into a % trapped designation. Upward pulling cartidge filter assemblies can have lower overall beta numbers due to leakage and inherent trash carryover downstream when pulling the filters.

Spin on fuel filters are pig in the poke? No, they are there to keep the diesels of today and yesterday runnning ok. Been that way for a very long time. If one cares to pull the tail of the tiger, remove your on engine spin ons and replace them with a Racor cartridge type unit.

BTW, I have cartridge type on engines. But a much superior design to the messy Racors. Like my Racors, I will not defend these to the death either. Speak of living on the edge.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 11:59 AM   #64
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codger2 View Post
I'm sure that spin on filters do an adequate job of filtering but the duel filter set up of the Racors, with their sight bowl and pressure gauge, as an early warning system, wins hands down IMO. As far as how long does it take to get a clean filter on line? How long does it take to turn a handle 180 degrees?

I don't have a duel Racor on my boat (yet) but it's in the works.

For much less money and space you can get spin ons with dual filters, valves and vacuum gauges. And your filter changes will be ever so much quicker. Look up Seaboard's units for comparison.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 12:09 PM   #65
Senior Member
 
cafesport's Avatar
 
City: Miami
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 492
Most of my boating has been with single racors and the times I've had to do insitu filter changes have been few, with non particularly difficult or time consuming. I did however have one incident on the way to a fuel dock that could have been catastrophic under other circumstances and it would not have happened if the boat had spin on filters. What happened was that that pretty little see through plastic bowl developed a crack and fuel was leaking out and running into the bilge. The 2 cycle detroit diesels didn't miss a beat and continued to run even though air was getting sucked in as fuel was running out. At the fuel dock, just as I finished adding fuel, the bilge pump went off, releasing a pulsing pink foammy mass overbaoard. OH OH. Fortunately the bilge pump was on a switch. Go to the panel throw the breaker, hop in the engine bay and close the feed line for the stb tank. Boat wasn't plumbed to run both engines off one filter and I doubt many do so with detroits returning 10 times the fuel that they actually burn. Current boat has dual racors and I must say I like the look of seeing clean fuel bowls. Our lugger primaries are racors and the same size (1gpm ) as our transfer system which moves fuel at about .3 to .4gpm depending on filter condition. Will I switch to spin-ons? Probably not. Will I have a spare bowl? No I'll have 2 but one might be metal.

OC Diver, those series 1000's (190gph) are what was spec'ed for 550 hp detroits, the 500 series are 60 gph and should be fine unless you are more than 200hp.


Via iPad using Trawler Forum
__________________
Via iOS.
cafesport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 12:47 PM   #66
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Not too many years ago the filter manufacturers adopted the beta number terminology. It gets away from a simple micron designation for a filter and gets into a % trapped designation. Upward pulling cartidge filter assemblies can have lower overall beta numbers due to leakage and inherent trash carryover downstream when pulling the filters.

Spin on fuel filters are pig in the poke? No, they are there to keep the diesels of today and yesterday runnning ok. Been that way for a very long time. If one cares to pull the tail of the tiger, remove your on engine spin ons and replace them with a Racor cartridge type unit.

BTW, I have cartridge type on engines. But a much superior design to the messy Racors. Like my Racors, I will not defend these to the death either. Speak of living on the edge.
Sunchaser, your mixing apples and oranges. The fuel separator isn't what makes your fuel injection pump compatible, it's the final filter between the lift pump and the injection pump. Pretty sure your filter specialist isn't telling you to remove that final filter and he's going to assume the warranty for your engine because you altered the manufacturers design. What we are talking about here are primary filters and separators. The spin on manufacturers can spin all they want about whether it's microns or beta number terminology and theoretical (that's all it is) contamination of changing a cartidge filter. The reality is if the final filter before the injection pump isn't clogging between recommended filter changes, clearly the Racor filters are more than adequate for the job. Maybe you can link us to articles where people's final filters were clogging as a result of inadequate filtration from a properly sized Racor seperator. I certainly have never heard of any.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 01:15 PM   #67
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Sunchaser, your mixing apples and oranges.
Really, I don't think so. I have stated I rely upon a Racor in line but don't like it because it is messy and time consuming to change.

I have hinted but will now say racor plastic bowls have cult status as an inline filter. Good for PH, who by the way will quite happily sell you spin ons for the same application touting their easy no mess design. In fact PH will sell you a fuel filter that has a priming pump built in to the head, now that is slick!

Remember too, I have stated I like Racors for fuel polishing provided big volumes are flowing.

As usual way too many in the recreational boating world think that because they have something it is good. Just 20 years ago I was doing business in Central Asia. The accountants at the business we owned used an abacus, many of them in fact. When they saw a laptop they went nuts. But alas, they were terrorized too by this new fangled stuff so we stuck with giving them pocket calculators. Good enough.

Now I'm mixing apples and oranges, I don't believe I'm the only one either.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 01:56 PM   #68
Guru
 
No Mast's Avatar
 
City: Atlantic Highlands, NJ
Country: US
Vessel Name: Moana Huaka'i
Vessel Model: Selene 53
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 816
take an empty gallon jug (bleach, vinegar, whatever) cut the top section off and it makes a great catch all for changing Racor filters. Keeps any mess contained.
No Mast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 02:18 PM   #69
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,822
I can understand the modest liability of a plastic bowel on an over the road truck or a piece of earth moving equipment, but think the risk in an engine room in a boat approaches icebergs in the FL keys. IMO, the bowl is comparable to an engine gauge. It allows you to see change. If water is getting into the fuel tank while underway as already mentioned in this thread, why wouldn't I want to see it in my engine space inspection before it becomes a catastrophic problem? If your engine is starting to run warm from a partially clogged heat exchanger, do you want to wait for the engine to over heat or an idiot light to come on? We use gauges to recognize change before it becomes a problem. The bowl is one more tool too see change before we have a problem. Please explain the flaw in this logic. BTW, the fact that PH makes separators without bowls and the rental car I'm driving this week doesn't have an engine temperature gauge doesn't bother me as I wouldn't own either one.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 07:07 PM   #70
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,928
Like many TF discussions....

If you are setting up a Saturn V launch.....you may want to be careful of a lot of things related to propulsion...

Having run a quite a few commercial vessels...some of which make many 3rd world vessels seem modern and up to date....too many here think NASA specified equipment and installation is necessary for the average trawler.

Clean fuel and almost the most basic filtration will keep most of our diesels running just fine. Bad fuel will kill all but the most sophisticated filter systems...only those that will allow the throw of a valve or two or give early warning of clogging will keep you going..no matter what kind of filters you have.

Now were those Walmart filters right next to the Walmart oil that will keep you purring for 10,000 hours?
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 07:12 PM   #71
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,997
Greetings,
Mr. ps. But, but...what about what Steve D'Antonio says.....
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 08:02 PM   #72
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,928
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Mr. ps. But, but...what about what Steve D'Antonio says.....
I used to take guys like that more seriously (unfair...not really them...but their you tie mag articles).... before I started running commercial vessels.

For every yacht steaming merrily along...there are a dozen or maybe a thousand hard working, unloved commercial vessels breaking every boating experts rules and most of ABYC stuff too.

I think you and most know that...and I am not saying lower standards because we can...but having the coolest looking fuel system is just boat porn and ego stuff...having a tried and true system that works for your boat and cruising style is probably fine, even if ridiculously simple and inexpensive.

Many here may have "improved" their fuel systems like I did...in reality the PO out cruised many here and certainly challenged me and I have put over 7000 miles under my keel in the last 4 years. No where in his logbook did he note a cruise stoppage of significance due to filtration.

Now, all that said....if traveling outside of the US and nearby often used facilities at neighboring countries...think long and hard how your system will handle bad fuel a regular basis.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 08:24 PM   #73
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,890
I like the Racor because it is easy to do an element change without mess, elements are cheap, and a glance at the bowl confirms no water.

Don't know how you guys change spin ons without spilling fuel. A cup or ziplock helps, but that stuff is still going to run out. Then you have to fill the new one, somehow.

On my racor, I crack loose the t-handle, then pump the primer on the injection pump about 10 times. This draws down the fuel level about an inch. Pick up element and quickly into a bucket. Usually I spill nothing.

With level down an inch, I don't need to top up. Engine can handle it.

And yes, changing element can send a bit of crud on to the secondary. But that is what it is for.

I look at a set of primary spin on's, then wonder, is there any water in there?? Only way to tell is remove and dump. Messy.

I like the clear bowl.


I posted this earlier, but somehow it ended up in a completely different thread!!
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2015, 10:38 PM   #74
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
I Then you have to fill the new one, somehow.

I look at a set of primary spin on's, then wonder, is there any water in there?? !
My Racors, as with many other vessels with good draft, are lower than the fuel tanks so gravity works just fine to refill. Have you ever found water in the Racor? If so, where did it come from?
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2015, 01:13 AM   #75
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Vancouver Shipyards Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,451
I took my twin spin-ons off my Lehman and remote-mounted another Racor. That meant three inline. The first two were a switchable pair and the third was the final. I removed the spin-on because they were a PITA to change and you had to change them on intervals because you couldn't tell if they were mucky. And I remote-mounted the Racor because there was no information from PH about vibration tolerance. Worked fine.
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-23-2015, 05:13 AM   #76
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Really, I don't think so. I have stated I rely upon a Racor in line but don't like it because it is messy and time consuming to change.

I have hinted but will now say racor plastic bowls have cult status as an inline filter. Good for PH, who by the way will quite happily sell you spin ons for the same application touting their easy no mess design. In fact PH will sell you a fuel filter that has a priming pump built in to the head, now that is slick!

Remember too, I have stated I like Racors for fuel polishing provided big volumes are flowing.

As usual way too many in the recreational boating world think that because they have something it is good. Just 20 years ago I was doing business in Central Asia. The accountants at the business we owned used an abacus, many of them in fact. When they saw a laptop they went nuts. But alas, they were terrorized too by this new fangled stuff so we stuck with giving them pocket calculators. Good enough.

Now I'm mixing apples and oranges, I don't believe I'm the only one either.
What am I missing?

I still don't understand why you think spin-ons are better than Racors.
You're only argument seems to be that OEM's put spin-ons on stuff. Is that what you're saying?
__________________
M/Y Dauntless, New York
a Kadey Krogen 42 Currently https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Blog: https://dauntlessatsea.com
Find us: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2015, 09:10 AM   #77
Senior Member
 
BrianSmith's Avatar
 
City: Wherever Smartini is
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Smartini
Vessel Model: 2002 Kristen 52' Flybridge Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 157
OK, I've read the entire thread (whew!) and although the question was asked once, it wasn't really answered, so I'll ask it again: how often should the on-engine fuel filter be changed?

Background: new-to-us boat, 1974 Gulfstar trawler with dual Perkins normally aspirated 6.354's. Single Racor for each engine, and one for the genset. Changed the Racor filters yesterday for the first time, and the fuel we drained out of the bowls was pretty cruddy (way dirtier than I would have thought from the visual inspection, BTW), as were the filter elements (black with crud). Not knowing when the on-engine filter cartridges were last changed, we changed one of those, too. (Ran out of time for the second one.) In spite of the crud in the Racors, the fuel in the on-engine filter looked crystal clear, and the paper in the element was still nice and white. Our PO was very meticulous about maintenance, and gave us his schedule of changes - but it doesn't even mention changing the on-engine filter, not even in the "Every 2 - 3 years" category.

BTW, the Racor elements are 2 micron. It seems like they do such a great job, that nothing has gotten past them to the on-engine filter, making me think the latter doesn't need to be changed very often at all. As in, every couple hundred hours, but not at all based on number of months. (Currently, we don't put more than 100 hours a year on the engines.) Am I oversimplifying? Do I have a false sense of security, based on just one clean on-engine filter?
BrianSmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2015, 09:22 AM   #78
Guru
 
cardude01's Avatar
 
City: Victoria TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bijou
Vessel Model: 2008 Island Packet steadysailer
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 3,184
Dual Racors

My Yanmar book says to change the engine fuel filter every 250 hours or every year, whichever come first.

110 HP, common rail, 4JH4HTE.

How often should I change my single Racor? Not sure what micron it is yet.
cardude01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2015, 09:26 AM   #79
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSmith View Post
Am I oversimplifying? Do I have a false sense of security, based on just one clean on-engine filter?
IMO, I think so. I change my filters once a year, no matter what. It (and the oil change) is one of the best things I can do for my engine. Clean oil, clean fuel & clean air filter will give you many years of service from your engine. I have some dock buddies, however, that say I suffer from OCD in the filter change scheduling. They have had several engine problems from dirty fuel...I have not.
__________________
Codger2

My passion for improving my boat(s) exceeds my desire to constantly cruise them.
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2015, 09:42 AM   #80
Guru
 
Capt.Bill11's Avatar
 
City: Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 5,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Mr. ps. But, but...what about what Steve D'Antonio says.....
You mean the guy who convinced a 1986 Marine Trader owner to drop $800,000 + in it to make it a perfect boat? And then it sold for under $300,000


Curtis Stokes Yacht Brokerage- 47 Marine Trader/D'Antonio Motor Yacht Sun Drum

"Sun Drum is the beginning of a new fleet of older boats that have been lovingly restored by their owners with Steve D'Antonio's professional guidance that will offer smart buyers better than new options when buying a boat. Sun Drum is offered turn-key, in stunning condition at a fraction of her total refit cost because her sellers are ready to move to their next project."

__________________

Capt.Bill11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012