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Old 07-18-2016, 12:31 PM   #21
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The engine Mfg do not know how the engine will be installed , or how hard (height and distance) the engine will need to pull the fuel up to and through the filter .
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They don't? Are you saying they don't work with the boat builders?
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:40 PM   #22
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I would also suggest following the manufactures recommendation. If Cummins calls for 30 micron primary, I would do that. I would also keep your Racors as parallel for the reasons already mentioned.

I don't know about the QSC engines, but on my QSB Cummins calls for 10 micron primary and the 2 micron secondary, so that is what I use. Now, if I ever run into problems I would consider adding a 30 micron spin on filter in front of the Racors, but I doubt I will have problems.
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Old 07-18-2016, 01:46 PM   #23
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The lift pump will be hearty enough on a marine engine to pull from whatever tank set up. For instance, the fuel pump on my Hatteras, which drew fuel from keel tanks, was the same one Detroit used for saddle tanks. The engine manufacturer's main concern is the right cleanliness of the fuel for the engine to to run efficiently and not be damaged in warranty.
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Old 07-18-2016, 02:39 PM   #24
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Good advice. I follow what the engine Manuf. specifies since they know best.For the Volvos I have, the dual racors are 10, and primary 2.

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Use the filtration sizes recommended by the engine manufacturer! There are very good reasons to use a larger primary in front of a smaller on-engine. The above-mentioned Mr. Athens discusses the reason why quite well, though note he is also sells filtering products (his big "mud catcher" might be a consideration in front of your current Racor set up if you are super paranoid).

Two micron primaries make less than zero sense to me, why unnecessarily clog your primary early and starve the engine of fuel? There's a reason most engine makers spec a 30 as the primary, though some modern styles use 10's.
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:25 AM   #25
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"Are you saying they don't work with the boat builders?"

Usually only after a problem arises.

On cookie production , what worked in the past is frequently what is selected for the next batch.

With TT many were built from copies of NA plans or simply hulls popped from an existing mold , and sold to finish groups.

On a larger custom vessel the head NA usually has enough info , but how the boat assembler does is the huge variable.

Abeking & Rassmusen WOW! ,,, Joe & Son , different WOW

building boats is not like auto assembly , with high production numbers, where builders learn from mistakes.

"The lift pump will be hearty enough on a marine engine to pull from whatever tank set up."

On a DD the lift pump is a geared unit ,

on light truck or farm implement marinizarion, usually the lift pump has a diaphram .

While every pump does better at pushing than sucking , sucking thru a fuel filter is the preferred setup.
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:10 AM   #26
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I believe the last time I read the Racor manual, that was exactly what they noted.

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While every pump does better at pushing than sucking , sucking thru a fuel filter is the preferred setup.
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:50 AM   #27
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Secondary fuel filters are usually on the pressure side of the pump. A role of the primary is is to keep the pump itself free from gum-ups. not entirely dissimilar from well or boat fresh water systems, where there is often some sort of screen in front of the pump to keep large chunks of sediment away, but fine filtration is on the pressure side. Or your raw water an a/c systems, where the "filters" are before the pump. And so on...
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:49 AM   #28
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So here was my approach to a total redo of the fuel system on my last boat. It's an older thread (2011) so there are some errors in the forum software, but you get the idea.

The Fuel System Upgrade Project

The thread ends before showing the finished product. Here is a Flickr pic:

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Old 07-19-2016, 10:08 AM   #29
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Pumping cooling water and attempting to clean fuel are very different.

The problem is the pump. in the act of pumping,will mix the water and fuel into Very small droplets ( almost molecular) , that the filter has a hard time filtering.

No such hassle keeping sand or jellys out of a coolant flow.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:21 AM   #30
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The engine Mfg do not know how the engine will be installed , or how hard (height and distance) the engine will need to pull the fuel up to and through the filter .

Happily both of my vessels have gravity feed from the fuel tank, so the 2 micron has never been a problem.

Although in most cases" Da Book " should be observed.
If you put the engine on the flybridge roof and fuel tank in the keel bilge, lift pump suction head could be an issue. But that is a pretty unusual configuration.

Most boats the engines and tanks naturally end up with relative elevations favorable for lift pump operation.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:58 PM   #31
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Traditional filtering systems are inadequate for today's fuels.
The diesel fuel you now burn is not the same stuff it was a few years ago, and is much more capable of carrying contaminants through your filtering system.
Changing and inconsistent regulations have even the filter manufacturers confused as to what's really required, and how it is rated.
Three or more stages of filtration (decreasing porosity) are vital to your fuel system's health and longevity.
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:20 PM   #32
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Three or more stages of filtration (decreasing porosity) are vital to your fuel system's health and longevity.
That's what I've done....27 -> 10 -> 2 micron filtration..
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Old 07-21-2016, 03:21 PM   #33
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Getting specific, you QSC engine requires 10 micro filtration before the engine. Not 30, 10. This is direct from the QSC installation manual. So whatever you do, you need to fix that. It's also why you are plugging up the on engine 2 micron, which as I'm sure you now know is a royal pain to change because it takes forever to bleed.

As for active/standby filters as you currently have, vs series filters (presumably 30 followed by 10), I'd personally stay with what you have. Being able to switch filters while underway is huge IMO. The real objective is to protect the 2 micron on engine filter so it only ever has to be changed at its scheduled interval. The dual Racors with 10 micron elements will accomplish that and make for quick and easy filter changes when/if necessary. We cruised over 10,000 miles on our QSC engines that way with no filer issues other than scheduled maintenance.

As for 2 micron in the Racors, that's a bad idea in this case. If they start to restrict you can get cavitation which can intern damage your high pressure pump. It's a common rail thing and perhaps less applicable to older engines, but applicable to yours. So just do what the manufacturer calls for and use 10. Gee, there seems to be an echo in this room :-)
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Old 07-21-2016, 05:27 PM   #34
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Traditional filtering systems are inadequate for today's fuels.
The diesel fuel you now burn is not the same stuff it was a few years ago, and is much more capable of carrying contaminants through your filtering system.
I'd like to see some facts on that. My impression is just the opposite, but "impression" is the operative word there.
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Old 07-21-2016, 07:31 PM   #35
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Back when we owned our old boat with a Perkins 6.354, I converted to a spin-on secondary filter. Back then, a great little store called Roy's Marine in Grantsboro, NC turned me onto Baldwin brand filters. I reached out to the company regarding an o-ring I lost and needed a replacement. I got a personal reply from Travis Windberg, Manager Of Service Engineering. Here is a snip of the email conversation we had:

Me >>> One quick question: Why isn't the micron filtration of your filters listed anywhere? Is there something I don't know about filtration that I should know? I have two Racor 500's with a 30m and 10m filter cartridges. I was hoping to have a 2m as the "secondary" CAV filter.

Travis >>> Micron ratings can be fairly complex. It is imperative to know the efficiency (Beta Ratio) associated with the given micron rating. When a company publishes a micron rating without this information, it does not tell the customer how efficient the filter is at the given particle size. For instance, if Company X rates a filter at 15 micron, they may be referencing a nominal micron rating which could mean the filter is anywhere between 50% and 90% efficient at that particle size. Please see the links below for more information about the micron ratings of filters.
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/10%20TSB's/89-5R3.pdf
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/10%20TSB's/04-2R1.pdf

This series of Racor numbers crosses to our PF598 series. The PF598 is five micron absolute. Therefore, its nominal rating would be at two micron or smaller. If you have further questions, please feel free to contact me.

I only used Baldwin filters after that (well, until Roy's closed). These older (non-common rail) motors don't need "double-super-duper-mega" filtering. IMHO, using what Racor calls a 2 micron for primary filtration (even secondary) is taking a bit of a risk. Both in pump strain and premature clogging. They do fine with a 30 primary and, in the most technical term from the catalogs... Secondary filter; whereas the micron rating is not even published. Heck, even my Volvos from 1999 only spec to 30 mic primary.

Certainly, I am no expert, but I learn by listening to experts and I think Travis qualifies. :-)
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:24 PM   #36
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No doubt the filter volume and size need to correspond to the rate of fuel movement. A ten-gallon per hour capacity has different needs than one of a 100 gallons. Don't know how much my fuel pump moves to provide a maximum of four GPH (80 hp) verses that needed for a engines totaling 200 or more.
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:33 PM   #37
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No doubt the filter volume and size need to correspond to the rate of fuel movement. A ten-gallon per hour capacity has different needs than one of a 100 gallons. Don't know how much my fuel pump moves to provide a maximum of four GPH (60 hp) verses that needed for a engines totaling 200 or more.
Lift pump on a JD 4045 at 2,400 RPM is 32 GPH or about a half a gallon per minute. Number varies with engine RPM. 1,800 RPM should be around 24 GPH.

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Old 07-21-2016, 08:52 PM   #38
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Lift pump on a JD 4045 at 2,400 RPM is 32 GPH or about a half a gallon per minute. Number varies with engine RPM. 1,800 RPM should be around 24 GPH.

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Thanks!. At 1800 RPM (normal cruise speed and a knot less than hull-speed), the engine is consuming only about 1.7 gallons an hour. The fuel should be being polished at a high rate. With 79-gallon fuel tanks using one tank at a time, a tank is polished in about four hours if starting out full.
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Old 07-21-2016, 09:07 PM   #39
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Lift pump might be capable of 32gph, but that does not mean the return flow is anywhere near that. I don't know y'alls JD's very well, but that seems to be a lot of return flow for a smallish engine.
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Old 07-21-2016, 09:31 PM   #40
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Lift pump might be capable of 32gph, but that does not mean the return flow is anywhere near that. I don't know y'alls JD's very well, but that seems to be a lot of return flow for a smallish engine.
Same pump is used on JD 6068 series up to 300 HP. Return line is 1/8" mpt. Don't know if you can push 1/2 gallon per minute through 1/8" pipe. Minimum fuel feed line is 1/4". I'm most likely returning 18 GPH at cruise.

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