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Old 07-07-2016, 08:58 AM   #61
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You should be able to go on line and mail order sample kits. It really does not matter who you get them from (IMO). Usually they come with their own mailer envelope and the results will be sent via email.

If you put 110 hours on the engine since purchase and it suddenly starts knocking on startup sounds a little strange. Just checking but your sure you did not hear this noise at anytime before? Not even lightly?

What makes me think it's not the lower end is that you have not mentioned any change in oil pressure at all. I would think if it was a rod bearing you would at least see some change in oil pressure.

Also when it comes to a rebuild if needed, you can spend as much or a little as you want to. I have seen plenty of engines that were only repaired and are still running today without a major overhaul. If you do find that your required go that route of repair then you may have to do it yourself. Most shops will not touch that because of liability of work.
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Old 07-07-2016, 10:32 AM   #62
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I just got off the phone here at my shop with an engine rebuilder and while I was on the phone I asked about a 3208 Natural. Not turbo. I can buy one off the shelf for under 9 boat bucks and that is with the core charge they would charge if your old engine is not rebuildable. One would still have to switch all the marine accessories over of course. But that should give you some idea of what you are looking at in the worst case.
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:29 PM   #63
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Anyone have an opinion or knowledge of any differences in the build between an industrial diesel engine verses a marine engine, such as injectors, pump, compression or cam duration.

(Looking at refreshing one of my Perkins and at around 6 boat dollars with exchange, a rebuilt industrial Perkins seem very reasonable compared to rebuilding mine. The rebuild includes new or reconditioned pumps, injectors, everything except marine specific accessories.)
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Old 07-07-2016, 08:12 PM   #64
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Rob- Thanks for the synopsis. Now it is much more clear where things stand.

A few thoughts:

Noise sounds like it is in sync with half engine speed, which is in sync with firing and individual bits of the valve gear.

Could be anything in valve train, could be piston slap, could be debris in cylinder. Could be other things. You've checked valve lash, good. You've kept intake ports protected from getting birds and small rocks in there, good. And noted that noise preceded pulling intake, got it.

One thing I've seen before was where a chunk of carbon came loose off the top of a piston or head, and then wedge between piston and head and made for bad piston slap. Once cleaned up, all was good. Did require pulling the head, though.

A good tech can probably narrow it down and get a good course of action. Hard to do remotely.

I still would like to know about the blowby flow and whether it is pulsing, and that require you putting the rocker covers back on. Yes, you can see the flow out around the pushrods, but that is a much sloppier check than with the unit buttoned up and all flow coming out of one path.

Good luck!!
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Old 07-09-2016, 07:05 PM   #65
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I'm going to go out on a limb here. At first I was with most here... valve, rocker arm, etc. But then I read the time line.

"June 21- The boat is loaded up and we’re ready to start the family vacation. Engines have been running in the harbor and are warmed up. We go a few hundred yards to fuel up and after getting fuel, I restart the motors and notice more white smoke than I remember seeing before coming from the starboard side and make a mental note to pay closer attention. About 20 or 30 minutes later, I was going a little faster than cruising speed to make up for lost time but nothing extreme. Then all of a sudden I hear a very loud knocking sound."

I find it odd that this happened right after fueling.

Question.... Are both engines running off the same fuel tank or different ones? If different ones, sounds like you may have gas in your diesel.

Just a long shot.

Best of luck,

Jim
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Old 07-10-2016, 12:29 PM   #66
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a rebuilt industrial Perkins seem very reasonable compared to rebuilding mine.

On some engines the injector pump will be different, and of course the exhaust manifold will differ.

Below does Perkins, Cat , DD , Cummins and will have the answer for your specific engine.


- Industrial Diesel, Inc.

www.industrialdiesel.net/


Detroit, Cummins, Caterpillar, engine cores. Diesel engine rebuilder and core supplier.
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:33 PM   #67
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I did contact a couple of different rebuilders and they all said would match the spec's for cam, pump and injectors to my original engine. For Perkins 6.354M rods, pistons and cranks for the NA engines are interchangeable.

Would be just a long block and I already have custom stainless MESA exhaust manifolds, so i'm good there.

Thanks
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:35 PM   #68
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Quote:
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I'm going to go out on a limb here. At first I was with most here... valve, rocker arm, etc. But then I read the time line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vonovik View Post

"June 21- The boat is loaded up and we’re ready to start the family vacation. Engines have been running in the harbor and are warmed up. We go a few hundred yards to fuel up and after getting fuel, I restart the motors and notice more white smoke than I remember seeing before coming from the starboard side and make a mental note to pay closer attention. About 20 or 30 minutes later, I was going a little faster than cruising speed to make up for lost time but nothing extreme. Then all of a sudden I hear a very loud knocking sound."

I find it odd that this happened right after fueling.

Question.... Are both engines running off the same fuel tank or different ones? If different ones, sounds like you may have gas in your diesel.

Just a long shot.

Best of luck,

Jim

I don't know if fueling had anything to with it or not, may have just been a coincidence when I noticed it. Each engine has it's own fuel tank though, but man that would be embarrassing. Hopefully I'd notice the difference since I tend to spill enough fuel each time that I end up smelling like it for a while. Thanks!

"One thing I've seen before was where a chunk of carbon came loose off the top of a piston or head, and then wedge between piston and head and made for bad piston slap. Once cleaned up, all was good. Did require pulling the head, though."

Thanks Ski, I will keep that in mind when I get back home. It would be great if it's something "simple" like that. Would that produce the metal flakes though?


"I still would like to know about the blowby flow and whether it is pulsing, and that require you putting the rocker covers back on. Yes, you can see the flow out around the pushrods, but that is a much sloppier check than with the unit buttoned up and all flow coming out of one path."

I'm nervous to fill the oil back up and start it up again in case I cause further damage. Hopefully we can get a mechanic out there when I get back to help me keep from breaking anything worse than it is. I think the first I'm going to do is figure out how to jack up the engine and pull the pan, then I guess get the oil sample done to try to see where the flakes are coming from.
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:47 PM   #69
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I'd do an oil sample before pulling pan off. Removing the pan can turn into a big job.

An oil sample is pretty reasonable price and will tell the type of metals in the fluid, the concentration of metal, and the most likely source of whatever metal and other fluids are in the oil.

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Old 07-12-2016, 04:32 PM   #70
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I'd do an oil sample before pulling pan off. Removing the pan can turn into a big job.

An oil sample is pretty reasonable price and will tell the type of metals in the fluid, the concentration of metal, and the most likely source of whatever metal and other fluids are in the oil.

Conall
Amen! There are lots of pan bolts in an 3208 oil pan. It's also tough to get the pan gasket back on properly while in frame. It can be done but man it's a pain. With an oil sample you might find pulling it off is not needed.
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Old 07-13-2016, 01:39 AM   #71
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I'd give the gasoline suggestion some thought and investigation. I had someone fuel a forklift with an 1160 Cat (predecessor to 3208) with gasoline back in the '70's and it knocked and smoked. Your timeline gives about the right time after fueling for the gasoline to work its way through a primary and secondary filter.
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:25 AM   #72
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Hello Rob,

Quick question if you don't mind. What did you cut the oil filter open with?

Jim
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Old 07-15-2016, 11:55 AM   #73
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What did you cut the oil filter open with?

The usual is a tubing cutter that will accept the filter diameter.

Doesn't add chips when cutting.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:18 AM   #74
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Heres the latest-

the oil sample is in the mail and should get there tomorrow, I'm hoping for results on Monday or Tuesday

Against all logic and in spite of my conscience, I cut the filter canister open with a Dremel, but I didn't use a metal wheel. Because hey, that's what the guy on youtube did. It's been eating away at me since I did it, so I ordered the $60 filter cutter and did it the right way on the other filter on Monday. Unfortunately, there were still the same shiny flakes staring back at me in the filter media.

I don't think it could be gas because I filled up both tanks at the same time. I found the receipt and it says diesel, and I really think I would have noticed if it was gas, so between that and the metal flakes, I'm ruling out that possibility

The mechanic thought he'd be available when I got back in town. Now he says he's 3 weeks behind schedule and doesn't know if he'll be able to take a look at it next week or not. If I hadn't talked to so many people here that have had similar experiences, I'd start to think I must have done something to tick the guy off but I think it's just how it goes in small fishing towns during fishing season. We have a local Facebook page for the town so I think I'm going to see if I can find anyone that way for now.

At this point, I'm really hoping the oil analysis tells me something that I can use to move forward. I have a hard time being at the mercy of people like I have been with the local mechanics, and I don't trust the dealer I talked to out of town after their first suggestion that I go ahead and order the part from Germany and spend the 35k they wanted. But I really don't know where to go next. I guess the bright side is that all of the projects I was putting off until winter might get some attention now. Unfortunately that doesn't fill my freezer with fish! Thanks everyone for the replies, you all have been a huge help.
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:51 AM   #75
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In my opinion
Now just wait for the results of the oil analysis, based on the outcome you can scedule your next steps.
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Old 07-21-2016, 05:56 AM   #76
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With big metal flakes in the filter, I think I would contemplate some sort of Plan B.

IF there is room lifting the engine to take a look at crank and rod bearings,

OR simply figuring out a source for a running takeout or rebuilt engine.

Do not overlook scrap yards , a crashed engine with few miles would be a fine transplant.
And not that expensive.

R&R the block will be the big hassle , and unless the boat is steel do not contemplate carving a hole in the bottom and patching the hole.

A hole in the cabin top for a crane R&R is rational, if required.
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:35 AM   #77
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Heres the latest-

the oil sample is in the mail and should get there tomorrow, I'm hoping for results on Monday or Tuesday
I'm still wondering if you did a pre-purchase mechanical and oil sample.
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Old 07-21-2016, 09:58 AM   #78
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Rob, the cat 3160 is the earlier engine to the 3208 and would work as a replacement if you are unable to find another 3208. If you need to remove your engine it may fit through a window. I have stuck a fork through a boat window to remove an engine. Just some random thoughts.
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Old 07-21-2016, 10:00 AM   #79
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I'm still wondering if you did a pre-purchase mechanical and oil sample.
I did not. I had read mixed opinions about that and decided that with the lower hours and what I thought was a good overall survey that I could pass on it. In hindsight I do wish I had at least sent in the old oil when I changed it upon taking ownership but nothing I can do about that at this point
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:32 PM   #80
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Oil sample of minimal utility here. If a bearing has failed, often the chunks are too large to get through pump screen, they get captured in filter and are thus not in sample. They also can be too large for the lab analysis to pick up.

Sample will detect submicron wear products that are created when something wears gradually, not so much when something breaks.

There's a decent argument here to pull heads and see if anything is amiss. Only takes half a day to get them off, then another day and some gaskets to put them back on. If there is a problem that requires getting into the bottom end, engine is now much smaller and heads would likely have to come off anyway.

Other option is RTF. Run to failure. If it is a big chunk of carbon on a piston top, it might clear up with running. Risky, but an option nonetheless.
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