Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-28-2010, 07:19 PM   #21
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 55
RE: Buying our first trawler

If an engine was designed to have a turbo then I would not worry about the turbo being to much for the engine. But as far as high hours on a turbo, the concern is with the impeller hitting the housing due to wear in the bushing. If you shell a turbo the the head needs removed to inspect for debris. Also, though not a big problem with boats, the air filter must be kept clean. A restricted intake can cause oil to be sucked past the seals in the turbo.
__________________
Advertisement

cd30ketch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 05:19 AM   #22
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Buying our first trawler

"If an engine was designed to have a turbo then I would not worry about the turbo being to much for the engine".

This is true but not the problem.

Too much engine for the boat ,,, a 200HP or more turboed engine gets really IFFY when asked to run 40 hp hours on end.

Where a turboed 65 hp would be really economical at creating that 40 hp at cruise.

Blame the advertising guys , most only step aboard dockside at a boat show , if then.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2010, 07:42 AM   #23
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Buying our first trawler

Quote:
FF wrote:Too much engine for the boat ,,, a 200HP or more turboed engine gets really IFFY when asked to run 40 hp hours on end.
Yet another idiotic statement from someone whose marine engine knowledge is stuck in the 1930s.

Take a look at the marine performance curve for the Cummins 6BT5.9M, a typical 6 cylinder turbocharged marine diesel engine as might be found on a large number of passagemaker type boats.

It produces 211 hp at 2600 rpm at its intermittent rating, and 180@2500*in its medium duty rating. The engine*delivers about 40 hp at around 1350-1400 rpm which is about the middle of its rated operating range of 800 to 2600 rpm when driving a "well matched" propeller. The manufacturer developed the power*ranges, warrantees the performance within that range, and allows continuous operation below 2300 rpm.

The short version is the manufacturer is quite happy with backing up*its promise with cash that the engine*will produce*40 hp for up to 3000 hours a year.*Do you think maybe they know something FF doesn't?*
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 05:55 AM   #24
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Buying our first trawler

RATED POWER OUTPUT CURVE
rpm kW bhp
2600 157 210
2400 152 204
2200 155 207
2000 149 200
1800 137 183
1600 121 161
1400 100 134
1200 80 107
1000 57 77
800 42 56
FULL LOAD TORQUE CURVE
rpm Nm lb.-ft.
2600 574 423
2400 606 447
2200 671 495
2000 712 525
1800 724 534
1600 719 530
1400 679 501
1200 636 469
1000 547 403
800 500 369
FUEL CONSUMPTION - PROP CURVE
rpm l/hr gal/hr 2600 44.9 11.9
2400 35.7 9.4
2200 28.2 7.4
2000 22.2 5.9
1800 17.4 4.6
1600 13.2 3.5
1400 10.4 2.7
1200 8.0 2.1
1000 6.3 1.7
800 5.1


Above is a transfer of the information Rick does not understand.

Notice at 1400RPM the engine "prop graph" shows 2.7GPH , perhaps 50 HP , but probably only 40 as the engine is so inefficient at that speed..

AT 1400 Rpm of "rated power output" (what the mfg warentees) the engine produces 134 HP .

134 divided by 40 or 50 is only about 1/3 or so of the rating.

"Live long and prosper ?" Probably at 100 hours a year but not for 1000's.

The numbers are there , but you have to have a concept of what you are reading , and an idea of what diesels LOVE!

In a word , WORK!!!
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 07:47 AM   #25
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Buying our first trawler

Quote:
FF wrote:The numbers are there , but you have to have a concept of what you are reading ...
That is the first thing FF has ever written about an engine performance chart that is even near the truth. Too bad he is incapable of taking his own advice.

Look at the prop curves FF,*the power actually absorbed by the propeller, not*the*power that the engine is capable of delivering to the shaft when connected to a dynomometer.

If that is the best you can do after stewing over this for 3 days you should find another hobby or another place to publish your nonsense. *When is it going to dawn on you that you really should just stay out of engine conversations. Your contributions are the equivalent of what I might provide to a forum on cooking Chinese food. Give up FF, your stuff is getting further and further from reality every day.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 12:42 PM   #26
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Buying our first trawler

Look at the prop curves FF, the power actually absorbed by the propeller, not the power that the engine is capable of delivering to the shaft when connected to a dynomometer.

That is exactaly the point you are failing to understand.

The minor power absorbed by the prop (40 maybe) is only 1/3 of what the engine is rated for at that RPM, 134 HP sez the guy that built it.

Only by proper loading can a diesel give efficiency , 1/3 of its rated output in minor .

THe "proper" loading is at the selected operating RPM , not just at flank to check a prop top RPM for 10 min a year.

A CPP is one solution to getting the loads up a bit .

When we ran the numbers for a Box Boat the solution was the ZF 2 speed tranny , slow down , shift the tranny to spin the wheel FASTER and it would then absorb more HP.

Combined with a CPP in a really skinny boat the results should be grand.

YES the operator would have to understand the system operation , an idiot need not apply.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 12:56 PM   #27
Guru
 
Carey's Avatar
 
City: Bellingham, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Happy Destiny
Vessel Model: Custom Lobster Yacht
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,101
RE: Buying our first trawler

Quote:
RickB wrote:

*
FF wrote:The numbers are there , but you have to have a concept of what you are reading ...
That is the first thing FF has ever written about an engine performance chart that is even near the truth. Too bad he is incapable of taking his own advice.

Look at the prop curves FF,*the power actually absorbed by the propeller, not*the*power that the engine is capable of delivering to the shaft when connected to a dynomometer.

If that is the best you can do after stewing over this for 3 days you should find another hobby or another place to publish your nonsense. *When is it going to dawn on you that you really should just stay out of engine conversations. Your contributions are the equivalent of what I might provide to a forum on cooking Chinese food. Give up FF, your stuff is getting further and further from reality every day.
*

Why so hateful Rick. Don't you have some smail animals to torture???

*
Carey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 01:11 PM   #28
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Buying our first trawler

Quote:
Carey wrote:Why so hateful Rick. Don't you have some smail animals to torture???
Because idiots who post nonsense should be pointed out as idiots. If you see that as hateful it is a shame and is really your own problem, not mine.

If you torture small animals in order to release your frustrations then you probably should seek professional help rather than suggest others*adopt your method ... that sort of thing hasn't been acceptable since FF learned everything he would ever know about marine diesels.

As you might be able to tell, I have little patience for fools.

*
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 01:58 PM   #29
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,707
RE: Buying our first trawler

I think the rest of us as individuals should determine if FF is an idiot. He expresses himself in strange and difficult ways frequently but I think he knows a great deal and I listen to him often.
Rick, your constant attacks in this social club I find unacceptable.
The 2 speed transmission would work well IF one knew how to use it properly and would need the appropriate ratios.
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 02:56 PM   #30
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Buying our first trawler

Quote:
nomadwilly wrote:I think the rest of us as individuals should determine if FF is an idiot.
He expresses himself in strange and difficult ways frequently but I think he knows a great deal and I listen to him often.

Rick, your constant attacks in this social club I find unacceptable.

The 2 speed transmission would work well IF one knew how to use it properly and would need the appropriate ratios.
I find his misconceptions and lack of knowledge without the wisdom to refrain from*misinforming those who come for information to be irresponsible. I find that truly unacceptable so I guess it's a draw.
**
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 03:07 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Bendit's Avatar
 
City: Auckland
Country: New Zealand
Vessel Name: Pioneer
Vessel Model: Westcoaster 53 converted to pleasure
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 283
RE: Buying our first trawler

FF has long promoted his viewpoint on overpowered vessels and under utilised diesel engines.

I don't agree with him on this, but he is entitled to put his view, and provide supporting evidence, without coming under personal attack.

My experience, and that of many others, is that as long as the engine maintains its working temperature, and if turboed, one or two pounds of boost is nice, there is unlikely to be any problem. This is precisely how I run the boat and how it has been run for most of the last 30 years.
Bendit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 04:42 PM   #32
JD
Guru
 
JD's Avatar
 
City: New Bern NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Stella Di Mare
Vessel Model: Mainship 34t
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,702
RE: Buying our first trawler

Gents,

I'm not taking sides here but I think Ricks frustration with FF is that almost everything FF posts has a hint of shade tree attached.* Everyone isn't interested in doing it "on the cheap" or the "just get by" method.* FF has a tendency to go for the cheapest way.*When someone talks of buying a boat he recommends to come to FL and get a steal.* Well first off all of the steals are not in FL and secondly some folks don't want a project boat that most steals turn into. *When buying a boat or fixing an engine he works on the assumption that everyone wants to carry a large tool box around and make fixing the stuff that breaks their life's work.* And I'm sure some folks do.

Where as I think Rick is more of a perfectionist and "damn the cost" gives advice on how to fix it correctly from an engineering point of view.

I do believe that some folks that own a boat should not be allowed to own tools, period. Least not*be allowed to work on the boat.
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 05:24 PM   #33
Guru
 
Arctic Traveller's Avatar


 
City: Juneau Alaska
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Arctic Traveller
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 619
RE: Buying our first trawler

No matter if some one is right or wrong, there is a CIVIL way to discuss your differences.* Let the members decide for them self's who's right, and who's advice to follow.* It's well known that there are several very experienced members on this forum, and we all learn from the opinions of others.* Those members have provided me with a lot of valuable information, some of which I have put to practical use. Trouble is, when it gets to name calling (or worse), a lot of folks simply quit reading.* I truly believe this happened over at PM.* So, if you could, (and I think I speak for a lot of folks here), "tone it down".* Please, by all means, give us your opinions to consider. We love to have lots of facts to rattle around our heads, it's one of the things that makes life fun.......................Arctic Traveller
Arctic Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 05:45 PM   #34
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Buying our first trawler

Quote:
Arctic Traveller wrote:So, if you could, (and I think I speak for a lot of folks here), "tone it down".
Consider it toned down.

*
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2010, 10:20 PM   #35
Guru
 
Arctic Traveller's Avatar


 
City: Juneau Alaska
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Arctic Traveller
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 619
RE: Buying our first trawler

Quote:
RickB wrote:
Consider it toned down.*
Thanks, and PLEASE continue giving us the benifit of your experience.* Every one has something to offer, and something to learn, and I love learning..................Arctic Traveller

*
Arctic Traveller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2010, 04:50 AM   #36
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Buying our first trawler

I find his misconceptions and lack of knowledge without the wisdom to refrain from misinforming those who come for information to be irresponsible. I find that truly unacceptable so I guess it's a draw.


Ricks "understanding " of diesels results from sitting in a room with an operating unit , watching the clock and practicing to pass a "test" .

This gives great practice at emoting canned answers , but as noticed NO ability to actually understand the principals of efficient diesel operation.

And as a Lefty , when simple reality intrudes , attack the messenger is the only recourse.

Internet postings are mere opinion (as when 134 divided by 40 causees a hissyfit, )

Rick and I have disagreed for years , I expect he is beyond the point of actual learning and understanding , but I would hope for minor civility.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2010, 05:04 AM   #37
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Buying our first trawler

Quote:
JD wrote:Where as I think Rick is more of a perfectionist and "damn the cost" gives advice on how to fix it correctly from an engineering point of view.
Thanks for the support.

I have a small but very important correction to make though. Even billionaire boat owners rarely if ever take a "damn the cost" approach and look at every boat buck the same way the rest of us do. They want value and that is what I am employed to provide.

Only once have I heard an owner say damn the cost and that was an exceptional case where not only was a great deal of money at risk but also a promise the owner felt he had to keep regardless of the financial burden.

Fixing something correctly, or choosing the right equipment based on its suitability, reliability, and life cycle cost is what our clients demand and what we ensure happens. Doing that means knowing how equipment works, what causes it to fail, how it can be repaired and if it is worth repairing at all or if it can hold together long enough to make it to the next yard period. This is not Gucci engineering, it is value added and value conscious marine engineering intended to protect the owner's investment, limit his liability, and make sure he stays in boating. I look at a boat and a problem as if it were my boat and my own money.

To keep our clients in boating they have to know they are getting what they pay for and enjoy a painless as possible ownership experience. This involves making sure the crew knows what they are doing, the yard work, and engine overhauls are performed correctly, only required work is done, and the costs are carefully controlled. We don't just throw the owner's money at a problem and we don't spend money on voodoo engineering either.

Much of the machinery used on even the largest yachts is a version of the same machinery I have on my own boat and most of you have. The tenders on a large yacht (often carried on a "shadow boat") are the same size as the boats owned by many readers here and use the same main engines and generators. The ground tackle is the same, and the radio and nav equipment is the same. A lot of what I say is based on the use of that equipment by many people in many places in many different conditions. Many of these yachts cross the Atlantic twice a year on their own bottoms, or routinely circumnavigate the Earth.* Those boats get used, they work for a living and the real world shows what works, how well it works, and for how long it works.

When you spend a few million $ each year keeping a boat working, you get advice from the manufacturer and the technical staff who know the engines and other machinery. We work closely with class society engineers and surveyors (these are not knock knock surveyors, these are inspectors who have the authority to effectively chain a boat to the dock) and negotiate how repairs can be made economically and safely. We can't afford to "wing it." If I or my opposite in our European office told the owners some of the stuff that contributed to this long winded post we would be out of business and in court before the boat was even tied up.

So, bottom line, it's about doing what's right, not wasting anyone's money, and finally, taking responsibility for decisions and recommendations that might cost a lot more than any amount of money can undo.

*


-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 3rd of November 2010 05:09:10 AM

-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 3rd of November 2010 05:11:39 AM
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2010, 07:34 AM   #38
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Country: USA
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,482
Buying our first trawler

Quote:
RickB wrote:

*
JD wrote:Where as I think Rick is more of a perfectionist and "damn the cost" gives advice on how to fix it correctly from an engineering point of view.
Thanks for the support.

I have a small but very important correction to make though. Even billionaire boat owners rarely if ever take a "damn the cost" approach and look at every boat buck the same way the rest of us do. They want value and that is what I am employed to provide.

Only once have I heard an owner say damn the cost and that was an exceptional case where not only was a great deal of money at risk but also a promise the owner felt he had to keep regardless of the financial burden.

Fixing something correctly, or choosing the right equipment based on its suitability, reliability, and life cycle cost is what our clients demand and what we ensure happens. Doing that means knowing how equipment works, what causes it to fail, how it can be repaired and if it is worth repairing at all or if it can hold together long enough to make it to the next yard period. This is not Gucci engineering, it is value added and value conscious marine engineering intended to protect the owner's investment, limit his liability, and make sure he stays in boating. I look at a boat and a problem as if it were my boat and my own money.

To keep our clients in boating they have to know they are getting what they pay for and enjoy a painless as possible ownership experience. This involves making sure the crew knows what they are doing, the yard work, and engine overhauls are performed correctly, only required work is done, and the costs are carefully controlled. We don't just throw the owner's money at a problem and we don't spend money on voodoo engineering either.

Much of the machinery used on even the largest yachts is a version of the same machinery I have on my own boat and most of you have. The tenders on a large yacht (often carried on a "shadow boat") are the same size as the boats owned by many readers here and use the same main engines and generators. The ground tackle is the same, and the radio and nav equipment is the same. A lot of what I say is based on the use of that equipment by many people in many places in many different conditions. Many of these yachts cross the Atlantic twice a year on their own bottoms, or routinely circumnavigate the Earth.* Those boats get used, they work for a living and the real world shows what works, how well it works, and for how long it works.

When you spend a few million $ each year keeping a boat working, you get advice from the manufacturer and the technical staff who know the engines and other machinery. We work closely with class society engineers and surveyors (these are not knock knock surveyors, these are inspectors who have the authority to effectively chain a boat to the dock) and negotiate how repairs can be made economically and safely. We can't afford to "wing it." If I or my opposite in our European office told the owners some of the stuff that contributed to this long winded post we would be out of business and in court before the boat was even tied up.

So, bottom line, it's about doing what's right, not wasting anyone's money, and finally, taking responsibility for decisions and recommendations that might cost a lot more than any amount of money can undo.

*


-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 3rd of November 2010 05:09:10 AM

-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 3rd of November 2010 05:11:39 AM
*

Damn Rick.... well said!
I always try to keep costs to a minimum on my boat expenses... right to up to the point that safety, the ability to be able to enjoy the boat ( what we are all here for ) or that being too cheap will cost more in the long term... value added engineering.
Post away!
HOLLYWOOD

*


-- Edited by hollywood8118 on Wednesday 3rd of November 2010 07:35:03 AM
__________________

hollywood8118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
buying a trawler edbulmer General Discussion 51 06-01-2015 10:33 AM
Buying a Pacific Trawler Jay N Pacific Trawler 17 12-10-2014 11:37 PM
Buying a used trawler Dimview Power Systems 14 09-13-2010 04:39 PM
Top Five Trawler Buying Mistakes N4061 General Discussion 4 03-25-2010 08:21 PM
Buying your trawler - documentation marinetrader General Discussion 33 10-30-2007 07:46 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:31 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012