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Old 03-02-2015, 12:26 PM   #81
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OK here goes. I retired from a major oil company and spent quite a few years in the lubricants division. Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on. About 80% of the base oils made in the US come from Exxon, Shell, Chevron and BP. Also over 80% of what's in the bottle is base oil, the rest is additive. Those additives come from a small number of chemical companies. WalMart does not manufacturer oil. They have someone else blend base oil from the big guys with additives from the chemical guys and put it in a WalMart bottle. This is not any different than buying "WalMaTussin" rather than Robitussin at the WalMart pharmacy.
So back to the question, there is not much difference in any of the oil brands, particularly if you change it on schedule. I use Rotella and no, I did not work for Shell.
Agree with most of what you say. Lubricant people I worked with were instructed to talk of "additive packages" and that there were different qualities of additives and bases that could be specified by the blender. (blender= someone who mixes base stock with additives, packages, & puts on label or labels) I think it follows that someone blending/labeling for WalMart will be on the brink of non profit and so may need to use the least expensive additives and base stock that he can meet the spec. with. I know that, back in the day, there were very real differences between Pennsylvania and Texas base stocks.
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Old 03-02-2015, 12:34 PM   #82
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I too am skeptical of Walmart Rotella. Considering the price pressure Walmart puts on suppliers, I worry that there may be a bit of skimping going on. Probably unfounded, but my oil supplier is about the same price so why bother.

It would be interesting to send in virgin oil samples from Walmart and my supplier and see if any of the additive concentrations are different. I might do that.
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Old 03-02-2015, 01:59 PM   #83
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OK here goes. I retired from a major oil company and spent quite a few years in the lubricants division. Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on. About 80% of the base oils made in the US come from Exxon, Shell, Chevron and BP. Also over 80% of what's in the bottle is base oil, the rest is additive. Those additives come from a small number of chemical companies. WalMart does not manufacturer oil. They have someone else blend base oil from the big guys with additives from the chemical guys and put it in a WalMart bottle. This is not any different than buying "WalMaTussin" rather than Robitussin at the WalMart pharmacy.
So back to the question, there is not much difference in any of the oil brands, particularly if you change it on schedule. I use Rotella and no, I did not work for Shell.
Yo Temptation! Welcome... very pleasing to have your "Lube" expertise onboard!

I've a question for ya.

Renowned marine mechanic tells me that using high grade dyno diesel oil in classic flat tappet gasoline engines with 4 oz ZDDP zinc additive at each 100 hr. oil change is the best mix to run (I also put in another 4 oz ZDDP 1/2 way between changes... i.e. at 50 hrs.

Have you an opinion on this lube configuration?

Thanks in Advance, Art
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Old 03-02-2015, 03:35 PM   #84
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This actually has been a good discussion from my point of view because it prompted me to look a little closer at the difference between my farm equipment based cold running lightly loaded boat diesel and my automotive engines. It appears that a monograde such as. Rotella 30 weight is the way to go in my 135 Lehman. A low TBN seems desirable in our cool running engines and these engines were designed to handle a straight weight oil on startup, unlike our modern auto engines I don't think my use of Delvac was harmful but I'm going to switch to Rotella 30 this fall (it seems like centuries away as the bay outside my window is frozen). Thanks again for some good discussion.
I was using straight 30 or 40 wt, as that is what Brian at American Diesel has always recommended.

BUT while in Maine two summers ago, at the local Wal-Mart, they only had 10W-40 because that's what the fisherman buy.

I used that for that summer, went to 30 wt for the summer in the south and then back to 10W-40 for the winter, as even the summers are not that warm here. I'll stick with the multi weight until we get back to the Caribbean.

By the way, besides mayonnaise, I should have brought more oil.
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Old 03-02-2015, 04:25 PM   #85
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OK here goes. Those who have said that is not difference in oil brands are spot on... Also over 80% of what's in the bottle is base oil, the rest is additive. Those additives come from a small number of chemical companies.
Temptation... Thanks for adding first hand knowledgeable insights.

Your comments are in agreement w/ the links I included in post #21 -specifically the author (retiree from Lubrizol) of the TDR 57 article stated that “Consequently there is less and less difference between engine oil that barely passes the API certification test and one that is designed to pass by a significant margin. Therefore, oils meeting a given performance spec (example API CI-4+) are approaching commodity status.”

While I agree there are only a few additive manufacturers don't they each produce a variety of "additive packages" for different base oil suppliers and to meet the various API certification levels? Also, you did not mention different API class oils... wondering if you can elaborate re: the following

The impression I got from the linked articles is that the additive packages are different for different API classifications and - maybe more importantly - that the additive package for CJ-4 was developed specifically for vehicles w/ particulate traps and to meet reduced emission limits.
In the TDR 56 it states "As Martin noted in Issue 54, unlike all previous specification revisions, the latest CJ-4 is not necessarily better than the CI+4 specification that preceded it. So, if you have an older engine, you may want to stay with CI+4. Engines manufactured after 1/1/07 require the new CJ-4 specification. Newer, yes; better, not necessarily so."

The tdr 57 author states "I’m also guessing there isn’t one API CJ-4 oil above the Ho-Hum performance level. Use these oils only if you have particulate traps on your vehicles! "

This implies that CJ-4 while a newer classification may not be superior to prior classification oil/additive combos if you have older engines w/o emissions control devices.

I'm wondering if you feel there is any differences +/- of CJ-4 vs CF, CH, CI classification oils for our marine diesel application

Thanks
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:45 PM   #86
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Greetings,
Mr. Tem. Welcome aboard.
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:52 PM   #87
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I don't worry about it. Let the John Deere engine mechanic select my JD engine's oil.
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Old 03-02-2015, 09:15 PM   #88
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So any old oil whether recommended for my lawn mower or gas engine in the Model A is suitable for a boat diesel?
That is not even remotely what he said.
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:26 PM   #89
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I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. Unfortunately social media instruments can't seem to support reasonable exchanges on many topics. In the boating community it appears we need to add engine oil to the list of inflammatory topics that includes anchors, VHF radios, batteries and a host of others. lawn mowers...Model A?
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:41 PM   #90
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I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. Unfortunately social media instruments can't seem to support reasonable exchanges on many topics. In the boating community it appears we need to add engine oil to the list of inflammatory topics that includes anchors, VHF radios, batteries and a host of others. lawn mowers...Model A?
Sorry to see you go Temp. You could add a lot to this thread. Some boaters get a bit snippy... that can happen inside any forum about topics and/or beliefs.

Please reconsider and stay with us!

Thanks, Art
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:47 PM   #91
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Here is a fairly comprehensive article on diesel engine oil

Heavy-duty Diesel Engine Oil Developments and Trends


The link doesn't want to pull up it seems but the article is by Lawrence G. Ludwig
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:53 PM   #92
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Here is a fairly comprehensive article on diesel engine oil

Heavy-duty Diesel Engine Oil Developments and Trends


The link doesn't want to pull up it seems but the article is by Lawrence G. Ludwig
Link won't open... for me.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:12 PM   #93
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That is not even remotely what he said.
That's true, I think. The point made was that there's no real difference between brands, at least not the major brands.

Oil type, viscosity, etc. is a different matter, and that is where what one puts in a lawn mower can differ from what one puts in a diesel engine even if the brand is the same. Temptation didn't address that issue, only the question of brand differences.

It would be nice to see Temptation stick around as there are a lot of misconceptions, urban myths, assumptions, shade-tree-mechanic practices, second and fifth hand information, and opinions floating around with regard to lubricants, additives, etc. Having someone who worked in the petroleum industry could add some facts to the mix.

I think most people stick with the manufacturers' recommendation for their engines but the topic always seems to generate a lot of interest. The most interest seems to lie in the question of using current generation lubricants in very old-generation engines. The "Can I use 0-20wt synthetic in my 1950s era Ford Lehman 120?" kind of questions. Good, bad, or indifferent?

It's always nice to have participants ikn a discussion who can offer an answer based on reality and direct experience, I think.
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Old 03-03-2015, 05:36 PM   #94
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Sorry to see you go Temp. You could add a lot to this thread.
Please reconsider and stay with us!
Thanks, Art
I agree w/ Art - we appreciate your inputs... just ignore the sarcastic commentators...
Like they say - you can't fix stupid... but with duct tape you can at least muffle it!
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Old 03-04-2015, 08:21 AM   #95
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The oil sellers always claim their oil is back compatiable .

In other words an engine built 30 years ago for C-D level of detergent will operate just fine with the latest brew J? K?

Maybe , I would prefer to look for oil that IS to the engine assemblers specs , even if it is "cheap oil" today , its the correct oil for that build..
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Old 03-04-2015, 09:33 AM   #96
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The oil sellers always claim their oil is back compatiable..
Cat has done considerable work to insure their factory supported rebuilds on decades old engines have the right lubricants. It is not a simple task as the additives from the old days containing "protective metals" are not always permitted today due to emission restrictions. Higher ash and sulfur levels from old spec oils are not necessarily emissions compliant either.

Cat's backward compatible work I have been involved with for decades was directly tied in warranties, in other words how can a factory rebuild on a 1980s engine last for the say 15,000 hour warranty period using emission compliant oils of today? Obviously Cat's oil suppliers of choice had to get on the band wagon or lose the endorsement of Cat which they obviously did not want to do.

In some cases this led to Cat long ago entering the branded oil business, not unlike Walmart, where drums of Cat branded oil would arrive on our doorstep to be matched up with warranties on engines old and new alike.

None of this though is terribly important to the majority of marine recreational engines where life is measured in years and not usage. But the ships, large yachts, tow boats, ferries, commercial fisherman and other high hour users (gensets) are right in the middle of what oils to use to yield extraordinary long life and be warranty and emissions compliant.
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Old 03-04-2015, 10:41 AM   #97
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I agree with what OC said and will add that people have or develop personal preference for various reasons. In my case, I like Shell Rotella and WIX filters. I stay away from "store" or no-name brands because I don't know who made it and I like to know.

Ken
Who makes the WIX?
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:12 AM   #98
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Who makes the WIX?
WIX has been around for a very long time with current plant locations in NA, SA, Europe and Asia. It is not inconceivable to get a WIX plant filter painted Westerbeke red and made in Asia.
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Old 03-04-2015, 11:25 AM   #99
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And no, their mileage will not vary.
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I respectfully withdraw from this discussion. Unfortunately social media instruments can't seem to support reasonable exchanges on many topics. In the boating community it appears we need to add engine oil to the list of inflammatory topics that includes anchors, VHF radios, batteries and a host of others. lawn mowers...Model A?


So basically you and Driftless actually have first hand experience in the industry and you both are saying essentially the same thing, but all you can do is post what you know and because there are those who are set to do and pay what they always have, so let's not kill any sacred cows

Besides, Capt Bill just makes a suggestion for those running their gen all the time on ways to save money and look at the grief he gets.

People vastly underestimate the power of marketing and they seldom see all, or even any of the factors, that end up as recommendations my the OEM.

So, it helps to have your expertise and in spite of the negativity, many appreciate the information and some even act on it.
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Old 03-04-2015, 02:50 PM   #100
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People vastly underestimate the power of marketing and they seldom see all, or even any of the factors, that end up as recommendations my the OEM.
As someone who for decades has been involved in marketing everything from pizzas, banks, airlines and car manufacturers and now 7-series jetliners, airplane and customer support programs, and aerospace component manufactureres I can say without reservation that the above quote is as true as true can be.
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