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Old 02-17-2015, 05:50 PM   #41
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Much like Marin's #40 and as last paragraph in Don's #39:

IMO - Regarding combustion engines; it is "clean" good oil that keeps em running at top performance. Bearings are not caring what lubrication barrier separates them... be it dino or syn... as long as the oil has good stability and is CLEAN of Contaminants. Therefore, often changes with good lube product and filter is name of the game.
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Old 02-17-2015, 07:03 PM   #42
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Marin,
Never heard anyone say changing oil every week is bad for your engine either.
Why don't you try that.

My new Jetta turbo 1.8 gas has 10,000 mile oil change intervals. I chickened out at the first 5,000 miles and changed it. It uses a strange oil filter of the cartridge type on the top of the engine. And the drain plug in the plastic oil pan is a star socket. Had to go buy a star socket wrench. VW uses 5W30 synthetic Castrol.
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Old 02-17-2015, 07:46 PM   #43
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Marin,
Never heard anyone say changing oil every week is bad for your engine either.
Why don't you try that.
The theory is fine, but it's a question of time. I changed the oil and filter in my wife's Subaru this morning before going to work. By the time one gets set up to do it and then does it and then does all the finish up: dump the oil into the collection barrel, clean out the drip pan, put the tools away, blah, blah, blah-- the better part of an hour's gone by. And the Subaru engineers were smart and made the oil and filter incredibly easy to change.

As opposed to Ford's engineers, who are not smart, and made the oil and filter in their pickups a gigantic, messy, pain in the a$s to change.

If I could simply plug our vehicles and boats and plane into a nozzel and push a button, I'd change the oil every time we used them. But it's just not practical.
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:59 PM   #44
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If I could simply plug our vehicles and boats and plane into a nozzel and push a button, I'd change the oil every time we used them.
That's where having an oil xchange pump pays off
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Old 02-18-2015, 07:25 AM   #45
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THe big boy gen sets will frequently have 2 oil tanks with a filter setup

Throw one valve lever and a fresh 200G is now feeding the noisemaker.

No muss a truck comes and replaces the old oil.

EZ at a Hospital, harder in your boat.
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Old 02-19-2015, 11:57 AM   #46
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More re: Yacht related dino vs syn & api class oils

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FF

One of the key learnings for me is that the new CJ-4 oils MAY not be better than - in fact may not be as good as - the previous CI-4+ category oils for us boaters (no catalytic converters or diesel particulate filters DPF's)
My assumption was that - as in the past - a new category was an improvement from all previous ones - maybe not in this case

For the record - I'm not a strong proponent of any brand or type of oil - I'm here to learn - from other TF members and info, links, etc they share
So my latest - and I found most interesting - oil related article is actually one that is pointed at yacht (recreational marine) applications.
The (attached- highlighting are mine & linked) article
"Best lubricants for yacht engines" by Cox Engineering - (who claim to be A technical information resource for yacht owners.

As an aside - I found the Cox website interesting and one I'm sure to visit again as time permits.

Besides being generally readable and informative, I found several points extremely interesting and closer to our application, which I haven't seen so far:
  1. What needs to be remembered is that lubricant development keeps in step with power requirements in the automotive field.
    Yacht engine operation, however, has not changed in the slightest.
  2. . Yanmar insisted that putting a higher grade modern oil in an old design engine was asking for trouble.
    Shell laboratories to my surprise they said the same thing.
    They went so far as to say that we should never use synthetics in old design engines since there were components in the oil that could cause accelerated wear.
  3. First and foremost, as far as possible use the grade of oil that the engine manufacturer recommends.
    In many cases this will be API CD, which can be difficult to obtain
  4. Otherwise, use a quality oil to API CF-4, which is the official replacement for API CD
  5. But use a synthetic? I wouldn'tt - although I (author) do in my car.

Just curious - Does this change any previous opinions or is everyone firmly entrenched and unwilling to change those long held beliefs???
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Best lubricants for yacht engines.pdf (366.6 KB, 32 views)
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Old 02-19-2015, 12:33 PM   #47
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Bacchus,
For me it's just the price. I see no reason why I couldn't use synthetic in a 1975 engine. But I can't "see" everything. Perhaps some of the new additives would do harm to seals or gaskets. Perhaps there's other things that are unknown .. to me. There's very little to gain. So I'll stick w dino as I'm assured of the results. If there was something significant to gain then I probably would. But what significant gain could there be? Very long oil change intervals have been debunked. Our engines last almost forever as it is and I don't see significant increases in economy re fuel burn ..... so what significant advantage could there be? Just significant enough to justify the price.

Name it and I'll switch.
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Old 02-19-2015, 12:50 PM   #48
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Bacchus,
For me it's just the price. I see no reason why I couldn't use synthetic in a 1975 engine. .
Eric

The pdf Bacchus attached states synthetics are not recommended for older engines. Nothing new with that reality other than it flies in the face of marketing blitzes. As always, stick with with what the book says or the closest thing to it.

Remembering of course that few of our engines will ever reach their practical base block hour limit, misuse and marine age will do them in first. Sooooo, the shortened life due to using the "wrong" oil is not an issue to keep too many of us awake at night.
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Old 02-19-2015, 01:37 PM   #49
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Sun chaser, that's what I have been saying. Also when you look at those wear studies, many of the best oils are also the cheapest so that chestnut about spending more to get better quality? Not in this case.

But really, this is the dead-horse issue, most have closed minds about this topic, I would say the "faith" component here is as rigid as religion. No matter what the evidence presents, many will just believe the marketing and buy the latest because the media says you should. That's what makes America great and makes it possible to get rich and buy new yachts.
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Old 02-19-2015, 03:05 PM   #50
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Most are happy with the oil they are using. There is no guarantee that the new oil will meet advertised expectations, exceed your current oil's performance, or won't be an overall failure. Why would you leave known and satisfactory expectations for something that may be only marginally better?

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Old 02-19-2015, 04:00 PM   #51
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Yesterday I put synthetic oil in my wife's 2000 Golf.
We went up to town (10min) and I'd swear the engine seemed smother.
Maybe that's why people buy stuff like this ... even if you know there's no difference it sure seems like there is.
Perhaps it seemed smoother because I was sitting in the right seat??

But there must be lower wear unless the old adage of "break it in on dino as so little wear happens w synthetic oil that break in will not happen using synthetic oil" is just an old wife's tale. I remember that from my ultralight flying days when we ran the little engines so hot that synthetic oil was clearly supperior. You could run the cylinder head temp 25degrees hotter w synthetic. And almost everyone that ran synthetic did break in on dino.

But we don't run our boat engines (except perhaps turbo's) that hot. Dino oil does fine especially at 25% to 50% load. Trawlers don't start at extremely low temps or have very hot oil lubricated parts. Just no need. I think more engine life would probably happen if trawler skippers ran their engines at 50% load or more.

But I'll never say synthetic oil isn't better .... it is.
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Old 02-19-2015, 05:48 PM   #52
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Synthetic oils may be better. If you change your oil every year after a few hundred hours, (recreational user) the benefits of synthetic might not ever come into play. It can be difficult to find API certified synthetic diesel oils in the viscosity required by the engine manufacturer. While Cummins now authorizes synthetic oil for their common rail QSC motors, they insist that you use the same viscosity and change intervals as dino oil. I have found only one API certified 15w40 diesel oil, it's made by Amsoil.

I found the posted article interesting. I think the warning about using too "good" of an oil in older motors has some validity. I had a genset on my last boat with a Kubota engine. The manual made it clear not to use the more advanced oils as it would cause cylinder wall polishing.

I would like to second the recommendation of Blackstone Labs. I have used them for several years. They do a detailed analysis, compare the current results to previous results, and make recommendations.
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Old 02-19-2015, 06:35 PM   #53
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Blue Yonder,
I think oil gets contaminated equally fast whether or not it's synthetic or dino. That's why we change oil .... to get rid of the contaminates. At least that's what it said in Bacchus's "Myth Busting" post on the previous page. I'm buy'in that as it's true for gasoline engines and they only get a small fraction of the black stuff (carbon) in their oil so it should be much more true for diesels. And carbon is an abrasive. So probably more benifit to changing dino often than using synthetic.
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:47 PM   #54
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Yesterday I put synthetic oil in my wife's 2000 Golf. We went up to town (10min) and I'd swear the engine seemed smother.
.
Eric--- Both our everyday vehicles use synthetic oils. One of the vehicles can use pure synthetic or synthetic blend, the other requires 0-20 pure synthetic.

Like all "machines," I think it's a hand-in-hand situation. Engines can be made more efficient without sacrificing power, or simply made more efficient, by design advancement that are in turn made possible by new technology developments, improved metallurgy, and so forth. But in order for these advancements to work, there need to be advancements in lubrication, heat dispersal, and so forth.

So the lubricant folks come up with products that allow the new engine designs and technologies to work. This in turn, leads to even newer design ideas and technologies, which in turn may require even better lubrication properties.

And so the upward spiral continues.

The fact that the new lubricants do a superior job of lubricating under conditions of tighter clearances, higher heat, and so on, makes them appealing to the operators of older engines. "If XYZ Oil is so fabulous at lubricating an F1 Ferrari engine at 15,000 rpm, or a twin-turbo, all-aluminum, high-output truck engine, then it oughta be great in my old Ford Lehman."

Well, maybe it will, maybe it won't as you've pointed out in past posts and as some studies have shown.

But what's more important is that in it's heyday (1950s in this case) that old Ford diesel wasn't old. In fact, it represented the then-latest in automotive diesel technology. And the reason it was designed the way it was is because the lubricants and coolants of the day permitted it. Just like the 0-20 synthetic lubricant available today made it possible for Subaru to do whatever clever things they did in their latest engine that went into my wife's new vehicle.

Which means that if one runs a Ford Dorset diesel aka Ford Lehman 120 in their boat and they run it on the oil that the engine was designed to run on, and they adhere to the manufacturer's recommended service intervals and operating parameters, they will get the very long service life that Ford of England had in mind when they designed the thing in the first place.

Sure, a synthetic might reduce friction a wee bit inside the engine. It also might start the engine leaking oil from places one never thoght an engine could leak from. You won't know until you try it.

But my point is, why bother? If you use the oil that Ford said in 1950-something shoudl be used in their Dorset diesel, the thing is going to run for many, many thousands of hours with no problems whatsoever as far as lubrication is concerned. As others have said here, the engine will crap out to the point of needing an overhaul way before lubrication becomes a problem (unless you let the engine run out of it).

So my philosophy is run an engine--- any engine--- on the oil it was designed to be run on and you'll never go wrong.
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Old 02-19-2015, 09:59 PM   #55
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IMarin yes indeed I agree w you and we'll said.

Where is our friend from Cal w the GB 36 that switched to some kind of Synthetic (I think it was Amsoil) in FL 120s? Did we run him off w our anti-synthetic rhetoric? I sure hope he's scarce for some other reason. I've expected him to leap in here for several days.

I'd love to put synthetic in my old 87 Nissan and my 73 Buick. I'm selling the Buick though and the Nissan's got 275,000 miles on the clock. Running straight 30W in it now. Like the Mitsu in the boat. I warm up the little Nissan kinda like the boat.

Re your last paragraph that's the safe route but we could be missing something good. Most likely IMO. But the "good" as we've both pointed out is small and very likely very small.
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Old 02-19-2015, 10:22 PM   #56
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I
Re your last paragraph that's the safe route but we could be missing something good.
Maybe. But given the cost of replacing a diesel engine or just the labor cost to fix a good-sized problem, why take the chance when there is so little to be gained? The engine is happy running on what it was designed to be run on, so why rock the boat unnecessarily?
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Old 02-20-2015, 02:00 PM   #57
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A year is about 8760 hours , our engines are operated 100-500 hours (200 the norm).

So for about 8000 hours not rusting the cylinder bores , and the rest of the metal is probably more important than a 1% savings from synthetic oil draining off under the oil scraping ring with less energy.
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Old 02-20-2015, 02:43 PM   #58
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Maybe. But given the cost of replacing a diesel engine or just the labor cost to fix a good-sized problem, why take the chance when there is so little to be gained? The engine is happy running on what it was designed to be run on, so why rock the boat unnecessarily?
I suspect the engineers back in the 50's would have specified today's oils if they were available. Oils have gotten better.

I too don't see the advantage in going hog wild and using synthetic on these old machines. And there may be problems with it.

A modern dino oil is plenty good enough.
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Old 02-20-2015, 04:26 PM   #59
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I suspect the engineers back in the 50's would have specified today's oils if they were available. Oils have gotten better.
Maybe, but it's a moot point since they didn't exist back then. The point is the engines and lubricants were complimentary in the 50s and 60s and the engines earned a reputation for longevity on what they were designed to be lubricated with. Trying a newer-generation oil will most likely gain the operator nothing in terms of engine longevity but will put a nice dent in his wallet if he's concerned about such things.
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Old 02-20-2015, 04:44 PM   #60
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So are you suggesting trying to find an oil blend that matches those made in the 50's? Those blends are simply not made any more.
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