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Old 02-16-2015, 09:39 PM   #21
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Diesel Oil Analysis Articles

Autoteacher

Great Reference - Oil FilterStudy - One of the more complete that I have seen

I wouldn't expect or attempt to change anyone's opinion re: their choice of oil but the links below might provide some w/ facts to substantiate their choices - brands as well as conventional vs synthetic

The analysis seems detailed and complete - I can imagine different conclusions being drawn from the results based on personal perspectives...
I'd be interested in any reactions you might have to the following studies re: Diesel Oils...

Diesel Oil Lab Test & Wear Test Results - provides detail & data re: Load carrying capacity / Film Strength; Detergent / Dispersant Levels; Thermal Breakdown Temp; and Additive Levels

A series of articles in Turbo Diesel Register by a Lubrizol (Additive Co.) retiree / Expert / Consultant

TDR 55 - DEBUNKING LUBE OIL MYTHS

TDR 56 - LUBE OIL, RELIGION, SPECIFICATIONS AND THE TDR

TDR 57 - ANALYSIS OF LUBE OIL – PART TWO

TDR 76 - LUBE OILS – VERSION 2012
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:18 PM   #22
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Read through the Diesel oil Lab Test, which seemed more focused on using diesel oil in performance car engines. My simple question is, does any of his testing have anything to do with engine part wear in a diesel. Frankly I have no idea what you would test for in new oil to claim one product is better or worse than another. Secondly, I would be more interested in the quality of the oil after 50 hours, 100 hours, 200 hours, etc. of use. Probably safe to assume that almost all of them are fine for the first 50 hours. Wonder if there ranking and test performance are decidedly different after 100 hours.

My Dodge pickup with a Cummins 220B now has 385,000 miles on it and still doesn't use any oil. Think I'm going to keep using the same oil regardless of his test results.

Ted
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:27 PM   #23
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TDR 55 - DEBUNKING LUBE OIL MYTHS

OMG Another article praising Walmart Supertech Motor Oil

Just teasing. . . Good article. I am not surprised at all and as the article reports, modern oils meeting the same spec are very close in quality. (But I'm still not going into Walmart to buy they're oil.) I wonder if I can mail order it instead?
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:30 PM   #24
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Autoteacher

Great Reference - Oil FilterStudy - One of the more complete that I have seen
Bacchus, I`d like to read it, but can`t click Oil FilterStudy. Appreciate if you could repost or reattach it.
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Old 02-16-2015, 10:54 PM   #25
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What is your favored company for testing used oil and other lubrication fluids to determine condition of motor or trany... or?

Thanks, Art
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Old 02-17-2015, 12:15 AM   #26
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What is your favored company for testing used oil and other lubrication fluids to determine condition of motor or trany... or?

Thanks, Art
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Old 02-17-2015, 07:49 AM   #27
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My simple question is, does any of his testing have anything to do with engine part wear in a diesel

Oil does not wear out the engine , the crap IN the oil wears out the engine.

Folks that want the least engine wear might contemplate a Spinner II setup , to remove the fines in the oil a regular filter passes.

Spinner II® Products : High-efficiency lube oil filtration for ...

www.spinnerii.com/
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Old 02-17-2015, 08:24 AM   #28
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Appreciate if you could repost or reattach it.
BruceK
The opriginal link is above in #13 but here it is again
Oil Filter Study
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:13 AM   #29
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Oil does not wear out the engine , the crap IN the oil wears out the engine.

Folks that want the least engine wear might contemplate a Spinner II setup , to remove the fines in the oil a regular filter passes.
FF
I agree ... in part
Particulates are only part of the wear issue -
The author of the series of TDR articles contends - and I tend to agree, especially in the marine environment "In today’s engines, corrosive wear caused by the acidic by products of combustion mixing with water vapor is much more harmful than abrasive wear. Stop-and-go driving keeps the engine oil from getting sufficiently hot to drive off acids and water vapor".

If particulates were the primary culprit we would test our oil and, if acceptable, leave in over the winter to run next season... but most of us wouldn't think of doing that. Also, some of us boaters may be frequently operating short durations or lower RPM / Temps that allow build-up of moisture & acids.

One of the key learnings for me is that the new CJ-4 oils MAY not be better than - in fact may not be as good as - the previous CI-4+ category oils for us boaters (no catalytic converters or diesel particulate filters DPF's)
My assumption was that - as in the past - a new category was an improvement from all previous ones - maybe not in this case

For the record - I'm not a strong proponent of any brand or type of oil - I'm here to learn - from other TF members and info, links, etc they share
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Old 02-17-2015, 09:52 AM   #30
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BruceK
The opriginal link is above in #13 but here it is again
Oil Filter Study
The problem with his "study" is he does not study how well a given filter filters dirty oil and for how long. Just looking at the filter construction only tells you so much, and as he says, these filters have passed the minimum filter standards.

A real study would have taken dirty oil, pushed it through the filter for some number of hours or until the filter clogged. That would be more helpful but I would suspect not so easy to do in the garage.

Later,
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:01 AM   #31
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What is your favored company for testing used oil and other lubrication fluids to determine condition of motor or trany... or?

Thanks, Art
I have used Blackstone Labs. Years ago, someone did a review of which lab to use and Blackstone was ranked very highly. I started using them due to user comments on two websites, one for trucks and one for tractors. My Google Fu is not finding the review.

Blackstone give a very detailed report. I would compare their report and cost with other companies to get a feel for the different companies.

Later,
Dan
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:03 AM   #32
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A real study would have taken dirty oil, pushed it through the filter for some number of hours or until the filter clogged.
Couldn't agree more - If you ever find "a real study" please post / link it

Even this was a help to me - just looking at the outside of a filter doesn't tell me any more than looking at the box...
at least knowing the +/- of what's inside the closed filter "can" provides some real info.
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:10 AM   #33
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Read through the Diesel oil Lab Test, which seemed more focused on using diesel oil in performance car engines. My simple question is, does any of his testing have anything to do with engine part wear in a diesel. Frankly I have no idea what you would test for in new oil to claim one product is better or worse than another. Secondly, I would be more interested in the quality of the oil after 50 hours, 100 hours, 200 hours, etc. of use. Probably safe to assume that almost all of them are fine for the first 50 hours. Wonder if there ranking and test performance are decidedly different after 100 hours.

...
Ted
Yep. I have used and done UOA on a number of different oils. None showed a danged difference in engine wear.

Later,
Dan
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Old 02-17-2015, 10:21 AM   #34
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Couldn't agree more - If you ever find "a real study" please post / link it

Even this was a help to me - just looking at the outside of a filter doesn't tell me any more than looking at the box...
at least knowing the +/- of what's inside the closed filter "can" provides some real info.
Unfortunately, that link is the only "study" I have ever head about over the years.

Buying from good filter brands, usually from JD/Fleetguard, Motorcraft, or Mobile, is about the best I can do with the info I have available. For my tractor engine, I just buy from JD since they will mail me the parts and the prices are inline with what is in the part store. I figure if JD will increase the number of hours allowed on on JD oil, in a JD engine, using JD filters, that tells me something about the oil, and especially, the filters.

Not sure what else one can do.

Later,
Dan
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Old 02-17-2015, 11:04 AM   #35
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I have used Blackstone Labs. Years ago, someone did a review of which lab to use and Blackstone was ranked very highly. I started using them due to user comments on two websites, one for trucks and one for tractors. My Google Fu is not finding the review.

Blackstone give a very detailed report. I would compare their report and cost with other companies to get a feel for the different companies.

Later,
Dan

Thanks, Dan. - I'd looked into Blackstone's link last eve while strumming through the net. Sounds good! - Cheers!! Art
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Old 02-17-2015, 11:14 AM   #36
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I have a Perkins 6. 354 . I use Perkins oil filters because of a suggestion someone here on TF made . Something to do with a built in check valve . Not sure if there is anything to that but that's what I use .
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Old 02-17-2015, 11:53 AM   #37
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Bacchus,
Re the issue about synthetics .. I read the;
"TDR-55 DEBUNKING LUBE OIL MYTHS" ...
Just as I always thought it was. Need to change oil to get rid of contaminants whether or not you're using dino or syn so the extended change out hype is just BS.
BUT it does say there is a reduction in friction. I had always thought that was bunk too but it seems it may not be. But if the reduction in friction is so little it's hard to measure that could still be bunk.

It still seems to me the only mentionable benefit from synthetics is high heat viscosity retention.


Bacchus wrote:
"My assumption was that - as in the past - a new category was an improvement from all previous ones - maybe not in this case "
And in many other cases. This has been my contention about MV oil in boats. Sure MV oil is newer but it's advantages in inboard diesels does not apply. So my opinion of what the best oil for our diesel boats is a high quality single weight oil like Shell Rotella and Chevron Delo usually in a 30wt viscosity.
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Old 02-17-2015, 11:54 AM   #38
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On Cats and Cummins, we use OEM filters for oil and secondary fuel. Cost is in line with aftermarket, and quality "looks" better.

On Cummins LF9009 for C-series, it actually has two elements inside, one coarse mesh and one fine mesh with a ventury to encourage flow through the fine mesh. Sorta like a bypass element tucked in the same can. Pretty neat and some of the aftermarket ones have no such thing.

Gennies, Fords, Perkins, Detroits get Wix sold through Napa or Carquest.
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Old 02-17-2015, 12:55 PM   #39
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"So my opinion of what the best oil for our diesel boats is a high quality single weight oil like Shell Rotella and Chevron Delo usually in a 30wt viscosity."

I have leaned this way in the past but becoming more of a believer now.

My most detailed first hand experience w/ synthetics is an industrial gearbox on a piece of equipment I participated on the design / operation of - unit ran in relatively high heat, 24/7 - The gearbox manufacturer strongly recommended synthetic lube based on testing they had done - they also recommended that new units be broken in w/ dino oils and then changed out to synthetics. Their testing had shown they did not get good break-in (minor wear of mating surfaces to get larger area meshing on gears) with synthetics - they just prevented the friction necessary for break-in.
We followed their recommendations and the units ran flawlessly 24/7 for many years - we did oil analysis and changed when testing said to.

I also know that Allison switched their transmissions from dino to syn lube and increased the warranty period at the same time. I believe, they also extended warranty for older units that did (and documented) a complete change w/ flush to sny. There must be something to it or I doubt they would stick their neck out w/o data to back it up.

Both of the above are non-engine cases and I agree in engine applications syn is a waste of $ - lube w/o combustion contaminants are another story.
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Old 02-17-2015, 02:04 PM   #40
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We change the oil and filters in our vehicles every 3000 to 4000 miles and the oil and filters in our diesel boats every 100 to 200 hours. I have yet to have an automotive, aviation, or marine mechanic tell me, nor have I ever read a "study" that says fresh oil and filters are bad for an engine.

Given that oil and filters are free relative to the overall ownership costs of vehicles, planes, and boats, I see no value in trying to see how long I can get away with between changes.

I do see value in using reputable brands of oil and filters although I think the brand of filter is more important than the brand of oil.
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