Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-01-2016, 01:21 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
mattkab's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma
Vessel Name: C:\[ESC]
Vessel Model: 2002 Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 285
Starter issues

Hopefully I can tap into the wonderful knowledge here and the experts in the group can help me diagnose a problem with my engine. I hate when people spoon-feed facts in these threads, so I’ve tried to outline the full amount of information in one very large dump of text.

Last year, my boat had a problem with the starter. I ended up getting towed home for the first time in 15 years of boat ownership, and had the starter professionally rebuilt and re-installed: https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/first-ever-tow/ We’ve probably run the boat for 20 hours or so, on half a dozen day trips since.

The past few times we’ve gone down to the boat there has been a loud squealing noise when starting. Sounded exactly like fan belt noise, so I went down to the boat last night to replace the belt.

After changing the belt, I turned the engine right over and observed things. Everything seemed great at idle. As I increased RPMs a slight whine started, but quickly went away (10 seconds?) and figured it was just the new belt. Everything seemed fine, and we continued doing some work on the boat in preparation for a cruise this weekend.

After a few minutes (15? 20?) my wife noticed smoke coming from the starter area. I investigated for just a few seconds, and then shut down the engine. There was an electric motor noise coming from the starter area with the engine off. I toggled the ignition switch to see if it was stuck, to no effect.

I then disconnected the negative battery cable to the starter. I was very hot — too hot to use bare hands to unscrew the battery terminal and had to use a wrench. The motor did not shut down immediately, and took approximately 20 seconds for it to slow down and finally stop. Smoke remained for another few seconds.

Before leaving for the night we tried to start the engine again, since the problem seemed isolated to the starter. The starter made noise (turning), but didn’t appear to have enough torque to turn the engine over.

Those are the facts of the case.

My assumption is that the starter solenoid stuck, and shorted the starting battery, draining it to the point it didn’t have enough amps to turn the engine back over. If I’m correct, if I got back down to the boat tonight and try to turn it over, it should work fine if the solenoid hasn’t completely failed. Replacing the solenoid (a $30-$50 part) seems prudent. Does this make sense? Anything else I should do or check?

Edit: I should point out that the "smoke" in the starter area was just small whisps of white or grey smoke. Not heavy exhaust smoke. No noticable smell at all.
__________________
Thanks,
Matt B.
https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/
mattkab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 03:17 PM   #2
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 3,023
A new solenoid should fix it, but I would probably pull the starter and either inspect or rebuild. If the starter was engaged for 15 minutes, the bearings could be shot. Also starters are not made to run more than a few seconds so you could have stressed internal wiring. If you have a single main, I wouldn't trust it. Starters are cheap on Ebay.
Solenoids fail in 2 ways. Either they make poor contact and the starter doesn't turn or they weld the contacts on locking the starter in a continuous run. Your is dangerous. You could have a fire from insulation burning and contacting paint or other things that burn.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 04:39 PM   #3
Guru
 
Russell Clifton's Avatar
 
City: La Conner Wa.
Vessel Name: Sea Fever
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 877
I agree. The solenoid is probably the problem. But, the starter is now probably damaged and possibly the starter drive too. If the starter drive is damaged it could damage the ring gear on the flywheel.Starters are designed to operate for only a few seconds at a time. Also, take a close look at the battery cables.
Russell Clifton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 04:57 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
mattkab's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma
Vessel Name: C:\[ESC]
Vessel Model: 2002 Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 285
If the starter was engaged to the engine flywheel, wouldn't it make a ton of noise?
__________________
Thanks,
Matt B.
https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/
mattkab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 05:03 PM   #5
Guru
 
Russell Clifton's Avatar
 
City: La Conner Wa.
Vessel Name: Sea Fever
Vessel Model: Defever 49 RPH
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 877
Yes, unless engine noise covered it up. Usually if the stater is rotating, centrifugal force is at work engaging the drive. A quick look at the teeth will tell. (might not be so quick if the starter is hard to get out)
Russell Clifton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 05:14 PM   #6
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
Can be as simple as a faulty start button or whatever start switch, commanding the starter to remain engaged.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 05:21 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
mattkab's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma
Vessel Name: C:\[ESC]
Vessel Model: 2002 Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 285
Update: My wife just got off the phone with the shop that did the rebuild last year. Technically the warranty for materials and workmanship is 6 for months, and the work was done 10 months ago. They did replace the solenoid during the rebuild.

However, he stated that because many of those months were winter months and because the starter has seen very little use, they offered to honor the full warranty -- without us asking in fact. They will send their mobile mechanic out next week.

There are some good people in this industry.
__________________
Thanks,
Matt B.
https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/
mattkab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 07:45 PM   #8
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,329
The shop extending their warranty time deserve a compliment on the thread.
Replacement smoke is available from Lucas.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 07:50 PM   #9
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,563
Lucas Replacement Smoke Kit
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2016, 08:05 PM   #10
Guru
 
kchace's Avatar
 
City: Brookline, NH
Vessel Name: Shalloway
Vessel Model: Defever 44, twin Perkins
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Can be as simple as a faulty start button or whatever start switch, commanding the starter to remain engaged.
Ski makes an important point here. The starter may not have been the cause. Faulty wiring or start switch could keep the solenoid energized which would have exactly the same effect. Everything involved should be checked.

Ken
kchace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 10:16 AM   #11
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 22,553
You should be very wary and check ALL the DC items that might have been on .

A "no starter cut out" will have the starter spinning at very high speed ,driven by the flywheel, since a DC motor is a DC generator if spun .

With perhaps 100+V some DC items may fry.

A voltmeter on the starter , usually to observe battery voltage during start will catch this (rare) problem , if monitored, after start.

On autos the ACC are not powered during start to hopefully catch this hassle.

My guess, the Bendex did not release .
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 11:21 AM   #12
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
You should be very wary and check ALL the DC items that might have been on .

A "no starter cut out" will have the starter spinning at very high speed ,driven by the flywheel, since a DC motor is a DC generator if spun .

With perhaps 100+V some DC items may fry.

A voltmeter on the starter , usually to observe battery voltage during start will catch this (rare) problem , if monitored, after start.

On autos the ACC are not powered during start to hopefully catch this hassle.

My guess, the Bendex did not release .
All starters I know of have over-running clutches that prevent the starter from being driven by engine and becoming a generator.

Good hint to watch volt meter during and after a start. If volts stay low, starter may still be running.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 11:49 AM   #13
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,306
You are on "borrowed time" now. Your mechanic has agreed to a "comeback" you need to explore all reasons why your starter isn't disengaging from welded points, broken return spring, internal binding, wrong starter drive, misalignment in the bell housing, over-engagement, China parts.
The list could be longer depending on engine & starter type.

Your starter motor cable is the only cable/wire on your boat exempted from overcurrent protection rules by CG and ABYC standards so it can, and almost did, take out your boat.
Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 12:02 PM   #14
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: 1977 Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,728
Did you notice an excessive charge or discharge on your ammeter after engine start? If so, it's probably the starter engaged and functioning as a generator as mentioned above.

It's important to monitor your electrical system after every engine start. In my boat, that means verifying an amp charge and voltage increase as the alternator comes online before and after the second engine start.
__________________
My boat is my ark. It's my mobile treehouse and my floating fishing cabin. It's my retreat and my respite. Everyday I thank God I have a boat! -Al FJB

@DeltaBridges - 25 Delta Bridges in 25 Days
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 02:25 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
mattkab's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma
Vessel Name: C:\[ESC]
Vessel Model: 2002 Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
Did you notice an excessive charge or discharge on your ammeter after engine start? If so, it's probably the starter engaged and functioning as a generator as mentioned above.

It's important to monitor your electrical system after every engine start. In my boat, that means verifying an amp charge and voltage increase as the alternator comes online before and after the second engine start.
I did verify the ammeter agree start and it appeared normal (between 14 and 15 volts). The battery indicator turned off after a few seconds once the engine turned over (the first time)

I do this as normal SOP, but I had just changed the belt so I watched it carefully for a few extra minutes.
__________________
Thanks,
Matt B.
https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/
mattkab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2016, 02:26 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
mattkab's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma
Vessel Name: C:\[ESC]
Vessel Model: 2002 Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooksie View Post
You are on "borrowed time" now. Your mechanic has agreed to a "comeback" you need to explore all reasons why your starter isn't disengaging from welded points, broken return spring, internal binding, wrong starter drive, misalignment in the bell housing, over-engagement, China parts.
The list could be longer depending on engine & starter type.

Your starter motor cable is the only cable/wire on your boat exempted from overcurrent protection rules by CG and ABYC standards so it can, and almost did, take out your boat.
Thank you, good point. We are going to meet at the boat on Tuesday after the holiday.

I'll make sure we go through the entire starting electrical circuit carefully.
__________________
Thanks,
Matt B.
https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/
mattkab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2016, 05:11 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
mattkab's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma
Vessel Name: C:\[ESC]
Vessel Model: 2002 Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 285
Followup:

Two different mechanics have gone down to my boat in the past week.

Both of them turned the boat over multiple times, and measured/investigated the engine and wiring. Neither of them found anything wrong with any part of the starting system. At this time it’s thought it was a one-time event.

Doesn’t exactly give me the warm-and-fuzzies.
__________________
Thanks,
Matt B.
https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/
mattkab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2016, 06:30 PM   #18
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,145
Starters can have issues off and on for hundreds of starts. Once they begin, you have no idea how many successful starts you have left.

Once you have had a couple hard starts....time to rebuild.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2016, 07:43 PM   #19
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,306
Sorry, but that wouldn't do it for me for reasons mentioned in my previous post.

I would remove it and completely disassemble and inspect every part of the motor and solenoid, I would discard anything that didn't look 100%. If you don't know what you are looking at, find a good parts jobber in your area to help you.
The auto electric rebuilder I use would do this for you for maybe $80. plus any parts needed.
Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2016, 11:57 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
mattkab's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma
Vessel Name: C:\[ESC]
Vessel Model: 2002 Bayliner 4788
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 285
SOLVED: Xantrex battery charger

Updating this thread in case anyone ever searches for similar issues

After multiple trips to the boat by me and my mechanic we finally were able to diagnose the problem!

The Xantrex battery charger was faulty. It had a flaw in the internal circuitry that would combine the output to the battery banks, resulting in 24 volts (unmeasured amps) of charge output.

When we disconnected the charger from the battery system, everything worked great. My mechanic also took out the starter and ran a full diagnostic check on it, and it turned out fine.

But it is expected that this was the root cause of the the electrical issues that I've been struggling with for the past year+, resulting in a new alternator, rebuilt starter, and new house battery bank.

My mechanic didn't even charge for the diagnostic work since I bought the new charger through him. This was not a simple problem; I have nothing but great recommendations for Modutech Marine in Tacoma.
__________________
Thanks,
Matt B.
https://mvcesc.wordpress.com/
mattkab is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012