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10-20-2019, 11:27 AM
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#21
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Guru
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,791
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Mine was done last haulout and this made a huge improvement in low-speed handling, did not affect cruise and cured a small vibration in the steering. Sorry, these photos are correct in my library.
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
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10-20-2019, 11:54 AM
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#22
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Guru
City: Anacortes
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 588
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I've been curious and looked at articulating rudders several times. My conclusion has been that I'm only interested in the increased maneuverability for docking and an articulating rudder might provide what I'm looking for but a stern thruster will definitely provide what I'm looking for. Also the thruster would be cheaper. Never understood the question about power consumption on thrusters, you only use them for seconds and always with the engine on and alternator charging.
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10-20-2019, 12:08 PM
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#23
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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It’s all a mater of how much you have to spend and how big the problem is.
I have two bolt holes in my rudder horn. When I bought the boat the steering arm was attached to the outboard hole giving 30-35 degrees of rudder deflection w about 6 turns L-L at the helm. I attached the arm/rod to the inboard hole closer to the rudder shaft. Got 45 degrees of deflection and three turns L-L.
That made such a huge improvement in rudder effectiveness I can come out of my slip w full rudder at the helm and stay in gear throughout my 90 degree turn. With room to spare. I should add I usually back in. When other skippers are aboard Willy while making hard over turns close to other boats, pilings ext in close quarters they sometimes begin to grab controls. I actually gently pushed one guy away. He thought surely we were going to crash into the stern of the big seine boat just ahead.
I got lucky In several ways. Boat is always at less than 6.5 knots with a big rudder. The rudder, shoe and other related hardware is very stout HD equipment. Someone put the extra bolt hole in the horn in just the right place. And I’d just converted to hydraulic steering and went way overboard on skookum. Choose hose, pump and slave cylinder suitable for most 40’ boats.
Faster boats w lesser structure in their rudder system shouldn’t add to the TE of the rudder or increase the leverage at the horm and shaft. You may overpower the system while rushing down a good sized following sea, yawing too much and using full power and full rudder to keep from broaching. But a smaller bit of the above may be safe depending on how strong your rudder system is. Like having a strong shoe connected to the keel and to the bottom of the rudder is probably a big plus. The weakest link is what should get the attention. But for many slow trawlers the above may work as well for you as it did for me.
__________________
Eric
North Western Washington State USA
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10-20-2019, 12:46 PM
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#24
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Guru
City: Port Townsend and La Paz
Vessel Name: Domino and Libra
Vessel Model: Malcom Tennant 20M and Noordzee Kotter 52
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 984
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Picture of fish tail rudder on Libra. It is quite impressive to me how this can move the stern of a 65 ton boat laterally. In combination with a large hydraulic thruster in front, you can drive the boat sideways in direction of prop walk. A little tougher but still useful in the opposite direction.
I came to appreciate this more fully this Summer at the customs dock in Victoria Harbor. For those of you familiar with it, I was forced to the inside at low tide with about a foot of water under my keel in a very tight space. When leaving, I had to back up in two 90 degree turns wrapping around the Southwest end of the pier with spectators in very tight quarters.
I wanted to kiss that rudder.....
__________________
Bill
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10-21-2019, 11:04 AM
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#25
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Guru
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klee wyck
It is quite impressive to me how this can move the stern of a 65 ton boat laterally.....I wanted to kiss that rudder.....
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Attached is the table of offsets for the team doing my fiberglass work in Ensenada Mexico (Niza Marine - good folks). I forget where I found the factors to make these calculations for my rudder, but this is what is being built. Note, there is a horizontal plate on the top and bottom to direct flow.
Originally, I inquired into articulating rudders as I know at least a couple Willards have one. One knowledgeable/experienced owner of not one but two Willards (one in SE Alaska, the other in Sea of Cortez) said "Pete, have you thought about a fishtail rudder?" So I did a bit of research and found several credible references similar to quote above from Klee Wyck. Relatively inexpensive modification. I own a slip and this will hopefully solve my fear of a particularly difficult configuration.
Fingers crossed - will update when complete!
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
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10-22-2019, 05:34 PM
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#26
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Guru
City: St Augustine,Fl
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles
Attached is the table of offsets for the team doing my fiberglass work in Ensenada Mexico (Niza Marine - good folks). I forget where I found the factors to make these calculations for my rudder, but this is what is being built. Note, there is a horizontal plate on the top and bottom to direct flow.
Originally, I inquired into articulating rudders as I know at least a couple Willards have one. One knowledgeable/experienced owner of not one but two Willards (one in SE Alaska, the other in Sea of Cortez) said "Pete, have you thought about a fishtail rudder?" So I did a bit of research and found several credible references similar to quote above from Klee Wyck. Relatively inexpensive modification. I own a slip and this will hopefully solve my fear of a particularly difficult configuration.
Fingers crossed - will update when complete!
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I think you will be happy with the FT rudder. Articulating is nice but more of a new construction thing as opposed to a refit item.
__________________
Jack ...Chicken of the sea! Been offshore 3 miles once
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10-22-2019, 08:32 PM
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#27
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Senior Member
City: Hong Kong
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 247
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I have an articulated rudder on my Duck, It was installed during the build. I agree with the comments above - it's fantastic.
One thing not mentioned is that it reduces the autopilot working loads as the rudder deflection is very small.
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10-24-2019, 10:31 AM
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#28
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Guru
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,094
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I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.
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10-24-2019, 07:48 PM
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#29
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Guru
City: Upstate,SC
Vessel Name: Shipoopi
Vessel Model: derilic sailboat
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.
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It could easily take that long if it's a composite rudder. Marine grade steel and aluminum are getting rather pricey as well. $80 per hour is a low rate in most areas.
__________________
This is my signature line. There are many like it but this one is mine.
What a pain in the transom.
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10-24-2019, 08:06 PM
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#30
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Guru
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben2go
It could easily take that long if it's a composite rudder. Marine grade steel and aluminum are getting rather pricey as well. $80 per hour is a low rate in most areas.
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I had the carbon fiber rudder for my sailboat completely reskinned and reprofiled for about 1/4 that price. Way more work than adding a tab. If you are talking about a steel or aluminum rudder then it is that much easier.
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10-24-2019, 09:33 PM
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#31
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Guru
City: Here
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,940
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Suggest you consider the fishtail rudder. 1hr. installation of two ss fins bent at 15 degrees, two bolts, 4 nuts. total cost less than $80.
Our boat was built with an improper rudder design. The designer had specified a balanced rudder. The builder ignored his instructions. The boat was extremely difficult to turn in tight quarters. The fishtails made a tremendous difference.
Don't need no stinkin' stern thruster
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10-24-2019, 10:02 PM
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#32
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Sandpiper
Vessel Model: Bluewater 40 Pilothouse Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.
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Articulating rudders are a little more complex than a trim tab. The articulating end pivots at a incrementing angle as the rudder turns away from center. There are no hydraulics or additional controls like with trim tabs. It's all mechanical with struts and pivots that has to continue working in harsh underwater conditions.
And that $8,000 was a few years ago. I'm sure it would be higher in 2019.
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10-25-2019, 01:11 PM
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#33
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Member
City: Istanbul
Vessel Name: Tickety Boo&Pruva Neta
Vessel Model: Tarquin Trader 41+2. 1989&Trader 44-2002
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
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Response to articulated rudder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartouche
No I have not interesting thought but would need some engineering assistance
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Hi Guy,
My name is Fikret Ezberci.I am a mechanical engineer and involving with marine industry 45 years.Please contact me on my e mail adress as below;
ezberci@ezbercimarine.com
I have Tarquin Trader 41+2 .
I think I can help you either in design or manufacturing articulated rudder/rudders
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10-25-2019, 02:02 PM
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#34
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Guru
City: Upstate,SC
Vessel Name: Shipoopi
Vessel Model: derilic sailboat
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
I had the carbon fiber rudder for my sailboat completely reskinned and reprofiled for about 1/4 that price. Way more work than adding a tab. If you are talking about a steel or aluminum rudder then it is that much easier.
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I was speaking of a full articulating rudder not a fish tail.
__________________
This is my signature line. There are many like it but this one is mine.
What a pain in the transom.
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10-25-2019, 02:05 PM
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#35
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Guru
City: Upstate,SC
Vessel Name: Shipoopi
Vessel Model: derilic sailboat
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syjos
Articulating rudders are a little more complex than a trim tab. The articulating end pivots at a incrementing angle as the rudder turns away from center. There are no hydraulics or additional controls like with trim tabs. It's all mechanical with struts and pivots that has to continue working in harsh underwater conditions.
And that $8,000 was a few years ago. I'm sure it would be higher in 2019.
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Yeah there's a lot of hard maths involved in getting those angles right so the rudder turns properly and in an expected way.
__________________
This is my signature line. There are many like it but this one is mine.
What a pain in the transom.
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10-25-2019, 02:41 PM
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#36
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Guru
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syjos
Articulating rudders are a little more complex than a trim tab.
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Not talking about a fishtail. It is a trim tab with a simple lever, usually controlled by a post in a slot. This isn't rocket science. Something as simple as a fishtail should cost almost nothing (in boat terms), whether composite or metal rudder.
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10-25-2019, 03:02 PM
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#37
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Member
City: Istanbul
Vessel Name: Tickety Boo&Pruva Neta
Vessel Model: Tarquin Trader 41+2. 1989&Trader 44-2002
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW
Not talking about a fishtail. It is a trim tab with a simple lever, usually controlled by a post in a slot. This isn't rocket science. Something as simple as a fishtail should cost almost nothing (in boat terms), whether composite or metal rudder.
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Please inspect the principles of the rudders which you called “articulated”,Dutch guys called”Flap rudders attached
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10-25-2019, 03:39 PM
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#38
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Newbie
City: Sunset Beach, NC
Vessel Name: EASTNOR
Vessel Model: Mainship 390 Trawler
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4
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Articulating Rudder
I purchased an Articulating Rudder from Bayview Engineering and had it shipped to Winter Harbor Marina in Brewerton, NY on the Erie Canal ant they installed it. They did an excellent job.
Capt Bill
EASTNOR
2001 Mainship 390
__________________
Capt W. Favro
EASTNOR
2001 Mainship 390
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10-28-2019, 11:53 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
City: Kingston Ontario
Vessel Name: On The EdJ
Vessel Model: Former 390 owner now Sundancer 380
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 466
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How much was the rudder Capt Favro
__________________
Joanne & Edward Billing
M/V On the EdJ Sundancer 380
Home Port Kingston Marina in the 1000 Islands
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10-28-2019, 04:48 PM
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#40
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Newbie
City: Sunset Beach, NC
Vessel Name: EASTNOR
Vessel Model: Mainship 390 Trawler
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4
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Articulating Rudder
The cost was $3933 US plus shipping.
__________________
Capt W. Favro
EASTNOR
2001 Mainship 390
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