Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-20-2019, 12:27 PM   #21
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,265
Mine was done last haulout and this made a huge improvement in low-speed handling, did not affect cruise and cured a small vibration in the steering. Sorry, these photos are correct in my library.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	A2E79BA6-20A3-4D0D-B687-2DA53AFFCED0.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	127.1 KB
ID:	95510   Click image for larger version

Name:	91587E78-43C5-4CF4-B6B6-5D246B9928D2.jpg
Views:	82
Size:	163.8 KB
ID:	95512  
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 12:54 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
City: Anacortes
Country: United States
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 236
I've been curious and looked at articulating rudders several times. My conclusion has been that I'm only interested in the increased maneuverability for docking and an articulating rudder might provide what I'm looking for but a stern thruster will definitely provide what I'm looking for. Also the thruster would be cheaper. Never understood the question about power consumption on thrusters, you only use them for seconds and always with the engine on and alternator charging.
__________________

sean9c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 01:08 PM   #23
Guru
 
Nomad Willy's Avatar
 
City: Concrete Washington State
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,147
It’s all a mater of how much you have to spend and how big the problem is.

I have two bolt holes in my rudder horn. When I bought the boat the steering arm was attached to the outboard hole giving 30-35 degrees of rudder deflection w about 6 turns L-L at the helm. I attached the arm/rod to the inboard hole closer to the rudder shaft. Got 45 degrees of deflection and three turns L-L.

That made such a huge improvement in rudder effectiveness I can come out of my slip w full rudder at the helm and stay in gear throughout my 90 degree turn. With room to spare. I should add I usually back in. When other skippers are aboard Willy while making hard over turns close to other boats, pilings ext in close quarters they sometimes begin to grab controls. I actually gently pushed one guy away. He thought surely we were going to crash into the stern of the big seine boat just ahead.

I got lucky In several ways. Boat is always at less than 6.5 knots with a big rudder. The rudder, shoe and other related hardware is very stout HD equipment. Someone put the extra bolt hole in the horn in just the right place. And I’d just converted to hydraulic steering and went way overboard on skookum. Choose hose, pump and slave cylinder suitable for most 40’ boats.

Faster boats w lesser structure in their rudder system shouldn’t add to the TE of the rudder or increase the leverage at the horm and shaft. You may overpower the system while rushing down a good sized following sea, yawing too much and using full power and full rudder to keep from broaching. But a smaller bit of the above may be safe depending on how strong your rudder system is. Like having a strong shoe connected to the keel and to the bottom of the rudder is probably a big plus. The weakest link is what should get the attention. But for many slow trawlers the above may work as well for you as it did for me.
__________________
Eric

North Western Washington State USA
Nomad Willy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 01:46 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
klee wyck's Avatar
 
City: Seattle and Blaine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Klee Wyck and Libra
Vessel Model: Lowland 48 and Noordzee Kotter 52
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 413
Picture of fish tail rudder on Libra. It is quite impressive to me how this can move the stern of a 65 ton boat laterally. In combination with a large hydraulic thruster in front, you can drive the boat sideways in direction of prop walk. A little tougher but still useful in the opposite direction.
I came to appreciate this more fully this Summer at the customs dock in Victoria Harbor. For those of you familiar with it, I was forced to the inside at low tide with about a foot of water under my keel in a very tight space. When leaving, I had to back up in two 90 degree turns wrapping around the Southwest end of the pier with spectators in very tight quarters.
I wanted to kiss that rudder.....
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Libra rudder 2 (2).jpg
Views:	65
Size:	141.0 KB
ID:	95516  
__________________
Bill
klee wyck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2019, 12:04 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by klee wyck View Post
It is quite impressive to me how this can move the stern of a 65 ton boat laterally.....I wanted to kiss that rudder.....
Attached is the table of offsets for the team doing my fiberglass work in Ensenada Mexico (Niza Marine - good folks). I forget where I found the factors to make these calculations for my rudder, but this is what is being built. Note, there is a horizontal plate on the top and bottom to direct flow.

Originally, I inquired into articulating rudders as I know at least a couple Willards have one. One knowledgeable/experienced owner of not one but two Willards (one in SE Alaska, the other in Sea of Cortez) said "Pete, have you thought about a fishtail rudder?" So I did a bit of research and found several credible references similar to quote above from Klee Wyck. Relatively inexpensive modification. I own a slip and this will hopefully solve my fear of a particularly difficult configuration.

Fingers crossed - will update when complete!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Rudder Modification (Jun 4 2019).jpg
Views:	62
Size:	99.2 KB
ID:	95542  
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 06:34 PM   #26
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Florida
Country: usa
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Attached is the table of offsets for the team doing my fiberglass work in Ensenada Mexico (Niza Marine - good folks). I forget where I found the factors to make these calculations for my rudder, but this is what is being built. Note, there is a horizontal plate on the top and bottom to direct flow.

Originally, I inquired into articulating rudders as I know at least a couple Willards have one. One knowledgeable/experienced owner of not one but two Willards (one in SE Alaska, the other in Sea of Cortez) said "Pete, have you thought about a fishtail rudder?" So I did a bit of research and found several credible references similar to quote above from Klee Wyck. Relatively inexpensive modification. I own a slip and this will hopefully solve my fear of a particularly difficult configuration.

Fingers crossed - will update when complete!
I think you will be happy with the FT rudder. Articulating is nice but more of a new construction thing as opposed to a refit item.
__________________
Jack ...Chicken of the sea!
Sailor of Fortune is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2019, 09:32 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
City: Hong Kong
Country: Hong Kong
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 242
I have an articulated rudder on my Duck, It was installed during the build. I agree with the comments above - it's fantastic.

One thing not mentioned is that it reduces the autopilot working loads as the rudder deflection is very small.
Searios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 11:31 AM   #28
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 948
I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 08:48 PM   #29
Guru
 
ben2go's Avatar
 
City: Upstate,SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dutch Barge Caroliner
Vessel Model: Selway-Fisher 45' Teign Luxe Motor
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW View Post
I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.
It could easily take that long if it's a composite rudder. Marine grade steel and aluminum are getting rather pricey as well. $80 per hour is a low rate in most areas.
__________________
What a pain in the transom.

ben2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 09:06 PM   #30
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben2go View Post
It could easily take that long if it's a composite rudder. Marine grade steel and aluminum are getting rather pricey as well. $80 per hour is a low rate in most areas.
I had the carbon fiber rudder for my sailboat completely reskinned and reprofiled for about 1/4 that price. Way more work than adding a tab. If you are talking about a steel or aluminum rudder then it is that much easier.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:33 PM   #31
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Whitby, Ontario
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,526
Suggest you consider the fishtail rudder. 1hr. installation of two ss fins bent at 15 degrees, two bolts, 4 nuts. total cost less than $80.

Our boat was built with an improper rudder design. The designer had specified a balanced rudder. The builder ignored his instructions. The boat was extremely difficult to turn in tight quarters. The fishtails made a tremendous difference.
Don't need no stinkin' stern thruster
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	new rudder profile.JPG
Views:	44
Size:	89.1 KB
ID:	95702   Click image for larger version

Name:	new rudder tail.JPG
Views:	43
Size:	120.3 KB
ID:	95703  
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
I had an allergic reality - Jillie the Bean
boatpoker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 11:02 PM   #32
Guru
 
syjos's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Sandpiper
Vessel Model: Bluewater 40 Pilothouse Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 880
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW View Post
I'm curious as to where the cost estimates for an articulating rudder are coming from. It is a pretty simple device, easily added to many rudders at least. Basically a trim tab with a lever on it. The $8K mentioned above implies 100 hours labor at $80 per - that is a very long time to do this simple job on a 40' ish trawler.
Articulating rudders are a little more complex than a trim tab. The articulating end pivots at a incrementing angle as the rudder turns away from center. There are no hydraulics or additional controls like with trim tabs. It's all mechanical with struts and pivots that has to continue working in harsh underwater conditions.

And that $8,000 was a few years ago. I'm sure it would be higher in 2019.
syjos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 02:11 PM   #33
Member
 
ezberci's Avatar
 
City: Istanbul
Country: Turkey
Vessel Name: Tickety Boo
Vessel Model: Tarquin Trader 41+2. 1989
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 15
Response to articulated rudder

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartouche View Post
No I have not interesting thought but would need some engineering assistance
Hi Guy,
My name is Fikret Ezberci.I am a mechanical engineer and involving with marine industry 45 years.Please contact me on my e mail adress as below;
ezberci@ezbercimarine.com
I have Tarquin Trader 41+2 .
I think I can help you either in design or manufacturing articulated rudder/rudders
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	CE376CAD-ED24-455A-9FDA-5BD98D709795.jpg
Views:	33
Size:	71.2 KB
ID:	95730  
ezberci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 03:02 PM   #34
Guru
 
ben2go's Avatar
 
City: Upstate,SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dutch Barge Caroliner
Vessel Model: Selway-Fisher 45' Teign Luxe Motor
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW View Post
I had the carbon fiber rudder for my sailboat completely reskinned and reprofiled for about 1/4 that price. Way more work than adding a tab. If you are talking about a steel or aluminum rudder then it is that much easier.
I was speaking of a full articulating rudder not a fish tail.
__________________
What a pain in the transom.

ben2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 03:05 PM   #35
Guru
 
ben2go's Avatar
 
City: Upstate,SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dutch Barge Caroliner
Vessel Model: Selway-Fisher 45' Teign Luxe Motor
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,631
Quote:
Originally Posted by syjos View Post
Articulating rudders are a little more complex than a trim tab. The articulating end pivots at a incrementing angle as the rudder turns away from center. There are no hydraulics or additional controls like with trim tabs. It's all mechanical with struts and pivots that has to continue working in harsh underwater conditions.

And that $8,000 was a few years ago. I'm sure it would be higher in 2019.
Yeah there's a lot of hard maths involved in getting those angles right so the rudder turns properly and in an expected way.
__________________
What a pain in the transom.

ben2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 03:41 PM   #36
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by syjos View Post
Articulating rudders are a little more complex than a trim tab.
Not talking about a fishtail. It is a trim tab with a simple lever, usually controlled by a post in a slot. This isn't rocket science. Something as simple as a fishtail should cost almost nothing (in boat terms), whether composite or metal rudder.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 04:02 PM   #37
Member
 
ezberci's Avatar
 
City: Istanbul
Country: Turkey
Vessel Name: Tickety Boo
Vessel Model: Tarquin Trader 41+2. 1989
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW View Post
Not talking about a fishtail. It is a trim tab with a simple lever, usually controlled by a post in a slot. This isn't rocket science. Something as simple as a fishtail should cost almost nothing (in boat terms), whether composite or metal rudder.
Please inspect the principles of the rudders which you called “articulated”,Dutch guys called”Flap rudders attached
Attached Images
 
ezberci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 04:39 PM   #38
Newbie
 
eastnorboating's Avatar
 
City: Sunset Beach, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: EASTNOR
Vessel Model: Mainship 390 Trawler
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4
Articulating Rudder

I purchased an Articulating Rudder from Bayview Engineering and had it shipped to Winter Harbor Marina in Brewerton, NY on the Erie Canal ant they installed it. They did an excellent job.
Capt Bill
EASTNOR
2001 Mainship 390
__________________
Capt W. Favro
EASTNOR
2001 Mainship 390
eastnorboating is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 12:53 PM   #39
Veteran Member
 
Cartouche's Avatar
 
City: Kingston Ontario
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Cartouche
Vessel Model: Mainship 390
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 83
How much was the rudder Capt Favro
__________________
Joanne & Edward Billing
M/V Cartouche Mainship 390
Agent Kingston Yacht Sales
Cartouche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2019, 05:48 PM   #40
Newbie
 
eastnorboating's Avatar
 
City: Sunset Beach, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: EASTNOR
Vessel Model: Mainship 390 Trawler
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 4
Articulating Rudder

The cost was $3933 US plus shipping.
__________________

__________________
Capt W. Favro
EASTNOR
2001 Mainship 390
eastnorboating is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×