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Old 02-04-2014, 12:04 PM   #21
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Wxx3,
That's what most mechanics do most of the time. R&R parts. Some are like doctors ... they just want to operate. Mechanics are preordained to start bending wrenches. Trouble shooting is hard work. It involves thinking. Some are about 100% R&R guys but some have a high degree of curiosity and are thinkers. They are good trouble shooters. Most are inbetween.

Good thing my mechanic isn't see'in this.
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Old 02-04-2014, 12:09 PM   #22
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Wxx3,
That's what most mechanics do most of the time. R&R parts. Some are like doctors ... they just want to operate. Mechanics are preordained to start bending wrenches. Trouble shooting is hard work. It involves thinking. Some are about 100% R&R guys but some have a high degree of curiosity and are thinkers. They are good trouble shooters. Most are in between.

Good thing my mechanic isn't see'in this.
My experience with car mechanics is that if i can not tell them what caused the problem, they will just spend my money until I run out of money.

One of the big positives about the internet, is that it is far easier to diagnose a problem on line, as i had to do after i had rotors on my jeep badly vibrate with only 5k on them.
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Old 02-04-2014, 07:48 PM   #23
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Dickhein, Has the piston recently been installed in the #6 hole prior to your first failure? I'm thinking a ring could have been installed w too small of a gap and this could be made worse w an out of round bore.
Ring gap is a possible culprit but wouldn't of been the cause of the 1st failure. IH had similar problems with a 6 cylinder diesel engines 35+ years ago, it was a 361 ci I believe, but the ran a lot more hours before the had a failure. The DT466 is what eventually replaced it in most of the equipment it had been used in. IH finally solved the problem by drilling the oil galleys to squirt oil into the piston to help remove heat. I'am not familiar with the brand of diesel in the owners boat but if the manufacturer also used a spray of oil to help cool the piston I'ld be checking to be sure that the orifice is clean. I would also be interested in the condition of the rod & wrist pin. You may want to send the head out to be pressure checked & magnafluxed for cracks also. Good luck
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Old 02-05-2014, 06:01 AM   #24
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Before throwing another dock cart full of money at that engine, I would have the injection pump tested.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:11 PM   #25
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A picture of the piston crown is below (I hope). There's little doubt that heat caused the initial failure. I have not had the injector pump tested. Is it possible that a faulty injector pump could spray too much fuel so that it washed away the oil lining the cylinder wall? I will have the injector pump tested.

I am considering installing a long block, but there's no guarantee that it too wouldn't overheat as well.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:14 PM   #26
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Piston crown.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:32 PM   #27
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This thread is making me nervous. I did replace my heat exchangers and hoses and I don't see any heat build up from the gauges point of view but after reading this I'll use my heat gun to read block temps after a run just to check mine out.

I hope you find the problem but my gut thinks IP problems. Loading too much fuel can do this.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:37 PM   #28
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Looks like there might have been loose debris in cylinder, but that could have been post-meltdown.

You really need to bore gauge that cylinder. That has to be done before you start talking about injectors or injector pump. If that hole was overfueled, engine would have run sick, very obvious.

Also was piston mic'd prior to install?

That damage looks to me like insufficient clearance, or gas leak past rings.

Not buying the overheat prone #6 for this, running 1400 that should not be an issue.

Bore gauge it already!!
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Old 02-06-2014, 09:14 PM   #29
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I was recently talking with a mechanic about this potential problem, we have twin FL 120's in our boat. He was recommending a simple external temp alarm be installed on the exhaust elbow to warm of high temps often associated with cylinder 6 overheating issues. The alarm could give a warning and time for shutdown to possible avoid catastrophic failure. I monitor with an IR gun as part of my underway checks. The mechanic said it is a band clamp install with wiring to an audible alarm. Seemed pretty straightforward.

Does anyone have this setup on their engines? The photos and problem associated with this repair have my ears tuned in to this thread.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:01 AM   #30
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I don't know for sure but I would think the exhaust elbow would be cooler than the side of the engine block at the #6 cylinder. Sounds intriguing though.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:11 AM   #31
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Note that the piston I have shown has about 4500 hours on it.
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:32 AM   #32
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To mention as probable, "how do you know this is an overheating issue?"
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:36 AM   #33
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I was recently talking with a mechanic about this potential problem, we have twin FL 120's in our boat. He was recommending a simple external temp alarm be installed on the exhaust elbow to warm of high temps often associated with cylinder 6 overheating issues. The alarm could give a warning and time for shutdown to possible avoid catastrophic failure. I monitor with an IR gun as part of my underway checks. The mechanic said it is a band clamp install with wiring to an audible alarm. Seemed pretty straightforward.

Does anyone have this setup on their engines? The photos and problem associated with this repair have my ears tuned in to this thread.
Here's one on our SP135. In the PNW, it's called a Norm Switch after Norm Dibble who made and sold them. Norm's retired now but you might ask at Pat's Marine in Seattle where he last worked.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:23 AM   #34
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Thanks Larry,

That looks exactly like what the mechanic was talking about. He said they have them at North Harbor Diesel in Anacortes. I will check it out next time I get to our boat.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:42 AM   #35
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That thing is kind of like putting a smoke detector in your driveway ... by the time it detects smoke the house is pretty far gone.

If the cause of the failure is anything but a raw water circ pump failure, that temperature switch will never detect it. It is only intended to warn of a raw water supply failure ... period.

The out of focus photo of the piston crown makes it difficult to look for clues (though the shiny bright and clean piston bowl waves a red flag) but I suspect a cause that has nothing to do with raw water cooling or even jacket water circulation. If it were my engine I would pull the injection pump and have it tested.
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Old 02-09-2014, 11:52 AM   #36
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What do you think the injection pump could do to cause this condition? I mean what could fail?
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Old 02-09-2014, 12:51 PM   #37
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If an adjustment on the metering collar slips, one cylinder can overfuel. That can overheat a piston. Usually this is obvious at idle, as engine knocks and shakes. An injector nozzle valve hanging open can do something similar. The calibration of the system assumes it takes a good bit of line pressure to open the nozzle valve, if the valve is hung open more fuel then desired is injected. Again, this is usually noticed as a sick running engine. With nozzle valve stuck open, spray pattern sucks.
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:11 AM   #38
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When you removed the injectors, did you photograph them? Here is how I did it when removed the injectors from my old Lehman 120 (before it was replaced)
InjectorRemovalNov6,2010

If we had photos of the injectors, it might add some pieces to the story of what was taking place in that and other cylinders.

Second question: did you happen to verify that the bleed off tube was air tight? This is a big item that many mechanics miss because they are not familiar with the specifics of the Lehman 120. When the injectors are installed, the bleed off tube must be correctly installed and verified to be air tight. If not, it will allow diesel fuel into the crankcase oil and dilute it, thereby changing the lubrication of the internal parts of the engine. Bob Smith can tell you more about this and its an item he stresses in his engine class. This photo shows you the test rig used to verify the bleed off tube is installed correctly:
Bob Smith/Pelton Passagemaker University Pic 093
Bob Smith/Pelton Passagemaker University Pic 093

I'm not saying that these issues were the cause of your cylinder/piston failure. I am merely saying that since you are having this work done, be SURE these items are followed properly. There are lots of diesel mechanics out there that dont know this !
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Old 02-12-2014, 09:58 AM   #39
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That would be a "no" to both questions Ralph. But two separate entities pronounced the injectors ok.
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Old 02-12-2014, 10:29 AM   #40
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When I took my injectors an fuel injection pump to be rebuilt, the technician told me the injectors were "ok". I queried him further to ask precisely what was the pop pressure he measured. The pressure he gave was HALF of that specified in the Lehman manual. I asked him how he could pronounce my injectors"ok" (ie what was his basis) and he said he used the serial numbers and looked it up in a book. He almost argued with me when I instructed him to set the pressure to be that specified in the Lehman book (and verified by American Diesel Corp).

Another case of why I verify everything and do not trust much in technical areas.....
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