View Poll Results: Would you accept a boat that can run for 3hrs at 4 kts before stopping for recharge?
Yes 2 7.14%
No 26 92.86%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-18-2017, 07:53 PM   #1
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Acceptable performance of a hybrid boat?

There is another thread going about the performance of hybrid boats, and what's realistic to expect. This poll is to see how many people would find the electric performance of a hybrid acceptable.
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Old 08-19-2017, 10:38 AM   #2
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Gosh, looks like nobody cares enough to even answer the poll.
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:16 AM   #3
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The entire idea of a hybrid for a trawler baffles me. Now if you could show me something that used a diesel/electric drive to some effeciency advantage I'd at least pay attention but I am guessing the complexity would be a big strike against that idea too.
The entire electric/hybrid idea appears to be more of a "feel good" thing than anything real at this stage...
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:35 AM   #4
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The entire idea of a hybrid for a trawler baffles me. Now if you could show me something that used a diesel/electric drive to some effeciency advantage I'd at least pay attention but I am guessing the complexity would be a big strike against that idea too.
The entire electric/hybrid idea appears to be more of a "feel good" thing than anything real at this stage...
Bruce
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:48 AM   #5
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Well...if you put the hybrid drive in one of our fat bellied trawlers it might not make sense, but how about a power trimaran?

Also, it's a slippery slope looking for logic in any kind of boat ownership
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:49 AM   #6
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And where would be the pleasure without the smell of diesel in the early morning
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:31 AM   #7
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And where would be the pleasure without the smell of diesel in the early morning
What he said!!
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:33 AM   #8
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Gosh, looks like nobody cares enough to even answer the poll.
0 for 14 right now, seems like you could close this poll.
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Old 08-20-2017, 09:59 AM   #9
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How about using an electric motor as a get-home power source? At the Seattle Boat Show this year there was an electric motor that attached to the prop shaft that ran off the genset, incase the main engine failed. This form of Hybrid seamed like a good idea to me.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:35 AM   #10
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" This form of Hybrid seamed like a good idea to me."

For similar bucks you could get a Hydraulic get home shaft power ,

a Hyd windlass , a Hyd thruster ,a Hyd boat hoist and a Hyd stern winch .

The white smoke NEVER comes out of Hyd goodies.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:56 AM   #11
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Four hours? That might be an acceptable run time for a sailboat's auxiliary engine, at best.

But, as the main propulsion? Maybe for an evening cocktail cruiser in the lake or bay behind your house.
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Old 08-20-2017, 10:57 AM   #12
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" This form of Hybrid seamed like a good idea to me."

For similar bucks you could get a Hydraulic get home shaft power ,

a Hyd windlass , a Hyd thruster ,a Hyd boat hoist and a Hyd stern winch .

The white smoke NEVER comes out of Hyd goodies.
This is something that I'll have to look into. I had not considered Hyd pack-up power, In fact I didn't know it was available.
Thanks for the insite.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:29 PM   #13
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A mention of the one hybrid that has been on the market a few years, Greenline. Electric range of 20 miles at 4 knots. With solar claim to be able to run all day at 2 to 3 knots. Also claim a lot of boats sold. I've yet to ever see one on the water, but thinking sold in Europe. If it was the next great trend in boating, wouldn't someone else be jumping on the bandwagon with them? And wouldn't their new offerings, larger boats, also be hybrid?

Then let's go electric, for canal cruising. I know of several people in our area who have bought Duffy electrics. They've been around 40 years as they were largely used for rentals at places like parks. Nice novelty for the canals, but then I hear of all the maintenance, issues with the electric systems and no one around to service them. A lot of sending the motors to the factory for rewinding and other things.

Successes get copied. Neither of these really has been. Not like you see a trend started. Why? The demand just isn't there. Also, they both introduced a product but can't tell that either has now made much improvement in their product, the growth isn't there.

I contrast with hybrid cars. They weren't big sellers at first, paying considerably more for the same car just to have hybrid. However, there was a drive and incentive to improve. Ultimately, they've come to the point of being able to stand on their own. A comparison of Accords. Accord Hybrid $29,605 for 47/49 mpg. Accord Sedan $22,455 for 32/23. The hybrid also has some items standard that are optional on the base sedan. It's a product many consider but one doesn't give up performance to get it. It's a nice pleasant option and it's also one that can function well for many people and their typical driving habits. Plus a small percentage of the car market was still enough to justify continuing to build upon it. Now, hybrids and plenty of electrics. Continuing improvement in alternatives. Now Honda has a Clarity Fuel Cell model running on hydrogen.

Another huge difference on cars and that is the government incentives that have existed to encourage alternatively fueled vehicles and the size of the potential market justifying the Tesla types. The auto market is just so huge and the recreational boat market so small. The auto sales are still a small percentage. Last year in the US 150,000 hybrid or electric out of over 17 million total. Miniscule, but miniscule on autos is huge still. Volvo just announced that starting in 2019, all it's cars will either be hybrid or electric. Are they crazy or smart? I think they may be on to something and that we're not that many years away from over half of all car sales being hybrid or electric. They are no longer novelties.

We have about 40 cars in our business fleet. Still small number. However, it's become a very realistic consideration to us of possibly purchasing Hybrid or Electric. I believe one day we will make the change. I don't think we're quite to that time yet. However, we might make the move by 2018. Tesla even has my attention with their Solar and Powercells for homes. Don't think they're there yet, but moving quickly.

Electric and hybrid boats remain novelties. Not a single major builder has decided to jump on the bandwagon. Do you see Sea Ray's hybrid? Of course not. Now people like Feadship and Oceanco and major yacht builders are working toward some alternatives. They can't run 4 knots though. I do believe it will happen one day in boating but it may well lag two or three decades or more behind cars.
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Old 08-20-2017, 03:44 PM   #14
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I was in the engine room of this tug a couple years ago. 2 diesels running 2 generators running 2 electric motors. Each about a 200HP device. Looks soooo heavy overall.
Yes, it was made in 1932, but until we get some room temperature superconductors, a 200HP electric motor is very heavy.

btw, a bit off point, but its single screw.
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Old 08-20-2017, 03:58 PM   #15
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If I could have a 6 knot trawler with a 50 mile battery range, I would be interested. To me, a 30 to 40 mile cruise day followed by a 12 hour dock side recharge, has lots of appeal. Would imagine having a generator to provide some backup. Clearly the batteries don't exist to make this feasible.

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Old 08-20-2017, 04:04 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
If I could have a 6 knot trawler with a 50 mile battery range, I would be interested. To me, a 30 to 40 mile cruise day followed by a 12 hour dock side recharge, has lots of appeal. Would imagine having a generator to provide some backup. Clearly the batteries don't exist to make this feasible.

Ted
I think at your numbers, it's closer to feasibility. Much like autos, they had to increase the range and speed.

Greenline, which is the major seller of hybrid boats, gets 4 knots and a range of 20 miles on the electric. I would think you couldn't go against any strong current. 6 knots and 40 miles sounds much better.
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:51 PM   #17
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The entire electric/hybrid idea appears to be more of a "feel good" thing than anything real at this stage...
Bruce

We can probably say the same about boating in general.
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Old 08-20-2017, 05:27 PM   #18
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Making math easy lets say 50hp to go 5kt so ten hours run time to get you 50 nm away. Here's my math.

assume 60% efficiency.

50hp = 37KW.

* 10 hours run time

370,000 W/h @ 100% efficiency - ouch.

Common Lead acid golf cart batteries @ 10 hr rate:
1242 W/h per battery.


Putting back in 60% efficiency - A whopping 500 batteries. (about $80K and 15 tons in batteries alone..).. and lithium is not cheaper in terms of lifetime W/h - just smaller and weighs less

PS: Diesel has an energy density of 33MJ/L. Lead acid battery = 0.56. Lithium Ion ~2. So making something 4X as efficient as the internal combustion engine does not solve this fundamental problem.

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Old 08-20-2017, 07:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by kev_rm View Post
Making math easy lets say 50hp to go 5kt so ten hours run time to get you 50 nm away. Here's my math.

assume 60% efficiency.

50hp = 37KW.

* 10 hours run time

370,000 W/h @ 100% efficiency - ouch.

Common Lead acid golf cart batteries @ 10 hr rate:
1242 W/h per battery.


Putting back in 60% efficiency - A whopping 500 batteries. (about $80K and 15 tons in batteries alone..).. and lithium is not cheaper in terms of lifetime W/h - just smaller and weighs less

PS: Diesel has an energy density of 33MJ/L. Lead acid battery = 0.56. Lithium Ion ~2. So making something 4X as efficient as the internal combustion engine does not solve this fundamental problem.
If we're going to look at numbers, lets get a little more realistic. My 45' trawler can cruise at 6 knots at 1.1 to 1.2 GPH. If I had optimized the drive train (smaller engine etc.) for that speed, the number mighy be closer to 1.0 GPH or roughly 20 HP.

Secondly, I wouldn't be using golf cart batteries. Industrial forklift batteties are much more energy for the same weight and space. I wouldn't be surprised if a large forklift battery would do the job. In an industrial plant, these trucks are designed to run 8 hours continously, battery recharged in 8 hours and then the battery cools for 8 hours. These lifts are using more than 20 HP.

Ted
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Old 08-20-2017, 08:03 PM   #20
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Some interesting numbers here.

https://www.elcomotoryachts.com

Ted
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