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Old 08-24-2010, 11:22 AM   #21
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

I am running SAE 30 Shell Rotella T oil in my Lehman 120, Kohler 8KW genset, and the Lehman injection pump lube resevoir.
I run Dextron III in my 2007 Velvet drive tranny, model 10-18.

As far as steering fluid, in conversations I had with Teleflex, I was told by their tech support that Dextron tranny fluid can* be use safely with no concern. No need to spend $17/qt for Teleflex Steering fluid from West Marine.

My boat is a 1982 Defever 41.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:47 PM   #22
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

albin man,I think your light viscosity synthetic in the BW may be a good idea. However I think multi-vis is slightly undesirable but I suspect that multi-vis synthetic meets the requirements or standards for without any VI improvers. And in that case you may have a good BW lube.
But there is one other possible downside to the engine lube oil for the transmission and that is foaming. Gears and clutches make like an egg beater and churn the oil up something fierce. I think the ATF has extra serious anti-foaming additives and that would make it the best oil for the BW.
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:13 AM   #23
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

The BW manual does approve the use of engine oil provided the rpm does not exceed 3000 which means it is ok for our low rpm diesels.
I know from my experience in working for a bearing company for many years that ATF is not a desireable bearing lube. Hence my decision to go with engine oil.
After 3 seasons so far so good.
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Old 08-31-2010, 04:17 AM   #24
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

However a tranny IS a place where there could be advantages to a synthetic oil.

The lubrication and sheer strength are better and the tranny may well run cooler.
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:09 PM   #25
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

"The lubrication and sheer strength are better and the tranny may well run cooler."

I would be interested to know if anyone had tried synthetic oil in their Borg Warner Velvet drive and if it really did run cooler...and by how much.

thanks
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Old 09-01-2010, 12:32 PM   #26
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Haven't tried synthetics in either engines or transmissions, but we did replace the stock raw water pumps on our FL120s (the original pump drive has a design flaw that causes it to eventually fail and there are no replacements on the planet), with new, larger Johnson pumps and this very definitely made the transmissions run cooler.
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Old 09-02-2010, 09:39 AM   #27
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Ralph,
I am using synthetic 5-30 (Castrol Syntech) *in my BW.
Been a while since I took my tranny's temperature but memory says it was something like 120 going into the cooler and 105 going back into the tranny.
Measured with a IR temp gun on the fittings.
Measurements taken at my "typical" 1750 rpm cruise, cool LI Sound water.
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Old 09-02-2010, 10:25 AM   #28
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Any reduction in temperature would probably be due to a reduction in viscosity * *...not friction.jleonard, I'll bet the manual redlined the engine lube oil as it is of higher viscosity however when they wrote the manual synthetics weren't available but I think I think anti-foaming additives are more important and more abundant in ATF. And as to shear strength that probably is an issue w plain bearings more so than balls and rollers. And I'll bet most all the heavy load carrying bearings are roller. Sounding a bit like Marin I'll say that all the "experts" I encounter say to use ATF. A side note on the BW is that the oil pump can consume up to 5hp just pumping oil and the viscosity of the oil is what causes the resistance requiring the 5hp loss. It's possible the 5-10W has lower viscosity than the ATF but I would'nt bet my equipment on it. Since I have such a low powered engine for the BW (37hp) my mechanic installed a much smaller gear impeller in the oil pump to reduce heat and power loss.
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Old 09-02-2010, 05:55 PM   #29
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

And I'll bet most all the heavy load carrying bearings are roller

They are ball bearings in my BW 71 series. And I am going to go out on a limb and say that at the rpm I run at foaming will never be an issue. Never. I will take the lubrication qualities of a regular motor oil any day over tranny fluid. That has been proven in many applications by the bearing engineers I used to work with.*

But that is me and you can certainly use the oil of your choice.
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:39 AM   #30
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Jay,I'm not going to say your'e wrong as I was the one that said synthetic low vis lube oil may be a good modern oil for the BW.
BUT. How does the BW fail? Bearings, clutches, oil pump, seals, valves or some other factor like heat. And why did all auto manufacturers have a special low vis oil for their automatic transmissions? I suspect it was because of foaming of conventional oils and the extensive use of ball and roller bearings. But I'm not a lubricating engineer and there are no doubt other additives in ATF that I don't know about. I am one of the first to experiment and do things that are not recommended so I feel a little awkward being on the other side of the fence but usually it's best to use a product designed for what one is doing. Is there no synthetic ATF available? That seems to be an obvious route to take. If there isn't any there is (no doubt) a good reason for it. It could be simply marketing or it could be performance related. One just dosn't know.
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:50 PM   #31
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Well the reason I went with synthetic* motor oil was because it has better lubrication, it has anti-foaming properties to 3000 rpm and I can only do 2500,**ab\nd I had a very long detailed discusion with th e old(er) and very experienced tech guys at BW in Rowley, Ma. We talked about foaming and motor oil and synthetic and we decided synthetic was a much better lube choice TODAY.
Actually I also consulted FF* Fred and he also supported synthetic.
Fred* hope you recall that discussion at Yankee Boatyard. I miss your honesty and candor hope you're doiing well.
I think I made a great choice .
Being an engineer I could discuss thiss to infinitem. Howevcer I think I'm done with my "argument".
Cheers my trawler friends.
Jay
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:59 AM   #32
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

So given that the Velvet Drive manual states that EITHER 30w oil or DEXTRON tranny fluid can be used......what is the downside of using the Dextron?

Nomadwilly asked what the failure modes of the BW tranny was.
I submitted for your consideration that ENGINE ALIGNMENT is the cause of most tranny failures you will hear about in trawlers....which has nothing to do with an inherent failure of the tranny itself UNDER NORMAL OPERATING CONDITIONS.

R.
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:05 AM   #33
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Only downside would be one more fluid to carry on board. When I bought my boat, the PO used straight 30 W in everything. Main engine (lehman 135), tranny and genset. I now use straight 40W in the main, 30W in the genset and Dexron in the tranny. No big deal to carry the different oils.
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:29 AM   #34
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

"So given that the Velvet Drive manual states that EITHER 30w oil or DEXTRON tranny fluid can be used......what is the downside of using the Dextron?"

The only downside I see is that motor oil is a better lubricant.*I only know this because if my time working at a bearing company.

At the higher rpms that gas engines run at the tranny needs the anti-foaming properties that dextron contains. I'm assuming BW engineers did their homework and know that non-foaming dextron lubricates better than foamy motor oil.

And while it's true that engine alignment is a huge cause of tranny bearing failures, I submit that since motor oil (or synthetic even better) has superior lubrication qualities that an "out of alignment" *tranny can likely survive longer. That is MY opinion based on my knowledge.
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:07 AM   #35
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Will the tranny fluid change be any different if using oil vs Dextron?

How many engine hours are you changing tranny lube ?

R.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:13 AM   #36
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120hp Lehman lube

The manual for our Velvet Drives states that only ATF (Dexron) should be used in them. Later manuals apparently added the bit about using lube oil but from what I've been told by our diesel shop and a marine gear transmission specialist, ATF is still the preferred lubricant for a Velvet Drive. As I understand it there are restrictions that apply when using lube oil. There are no restrictions when using ATF.

The bit about lube oil being a better lubricant for transmissions makes no sense to me since it's not like motor oil was invented after ATF. When Borg Warner--- a company I suspect knows a thing or two about transmissions--- created the Velvet Drive they could have used lube oil, ATF, whale oil, or spit as the lubricant since they all existed at the time. The fact that they chose ATF and only added the bit about using lube oil later (with restrictions) tells me that they chose ATF for a reason. If someone wants to armchair theorize about lube oil being a better lubricant for automatic transmissions (all the ones in our vehicles use ATF, by the way), that's fine since it will be their overhaul bill not mine.

On the advice of our diesel/transmission shop we change the ATF in our transmissions every couple of years, so say every 200 to 300 hours. You certainly want to change it before it starts looking dirty--- losing its pink color. If you run lube oil in your Velvet Drive I have no clue when it should be changed nor does out shop since they don't recommend it.

And for the armchair crowd, here's one you can ponder.* Our Range Rover, as well as a couple other 4wd vehicles I've dealt with, uses ATF as the lubricant in the transfer case.* Not gear oil.* Why?* Because they have determined that ATF acutally does a better lubricating job in this application than gear oil.* Go figure.

-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 8th of September 2010 10:17:13 AM
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Old 09-08-2010, 11:22 AM   #37
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

Quote:
ralphyost wrote:

Will the tranny fluid change be any different if using oil vs Dextron?

How many engine hours are you changing tranny lube ?

R.
I am changing every other season, which for me ends up being 150 or so hours right now.

" Later manuals apparently added the bit about using lube oil"

Not apparently, they put it in writing.

I had a Dodge with a manual tranny that specified ATF. That was becasue the clearances were too tight for motor oil or gear lube.*It would not shift with gear oil or motor oil.

"The bit about lube oil being a better lubricant for transmissions makes no sense to me"

Like I said it only makes sense to me because I worked with many bearing design and development engineers. The simple fact was bearings in ATF had a horrible life span comapred to bearings in motor oil.*They all cringed when they had to work on an application*where the bearing was in ATF. That is real life. Not armchair.

Sure ATF works. Use it if you'd like. There are other choices today depending upon application.


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Old 09-08-2010, 11:23 AM   #38
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

"The manual for our Velvet Drives states that only ATF (Dexron) should be used in them. Later manuals apparently added the bit about using lube oil but from what I've been told by our diesel shop and a marine gear transmission specialist, ATF is still the preferred lubricant for a Velvet Drive. As I understand it there are restrictions that apply when using lube oil. There are no restrictions when using ATF."

Quoting directly from the Velvet Drive manual, dated 8-82, it states on page 11:

Type F Dexron and other hydraulic fluids which meet Detroit Diesel Allison Division of General Motors Corp specifications for type C3 oils are recommended for use in all Velvet drive marine gears.
Lubricating oils which are recommended for us in diesel engines and fall within the Allison specifications for C3 oils may be used in all Velvet drive marine gears if the engine RPM does not exceed 3000 RPM. SAE #30 is preferred. SAE #40 is acceptable if high operating temperatures are anticipated. Multi viscosity oils such as 10-40W are not acceptable. The first choice is SAE-API service class "CD" oils. The second choice is SAE-API service class "CC" oils.
The equivelent DOD* mil specs are:
CD MIL-L-21046
CC* MIL-L-45199

Detroit Diesel Allison Division of General Motors Corp developed the C3 specifications for oils to be used in their hydraulic automatic and power shift* transmissions used in heavy duty or severe service conditions.These oils are very well suited for use in all Velvet drive marine gears.
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Old 09-08-2010, 11:57 AM   #39
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

My Hurth tranny manual says use ATF. It is quite common that industrial hydraulic fluids are indeed motor oils (Cat), but so stipulated in the book. In a hydralic pump like a transmission, there is more to longevity than bearing life - try seals, valves, temperature shedding and internal pressure guidelines. For the transmissions we are discussing, the manufacturer warranties his product if used according to the book.* Lots of thought, testing*and experience goes into the oil seleection. And don't forget to change the filter.

The most overlooked tranny item is the HX. No matter what fluid you use, let that HX get dirty and you are courting disaster. FYI, I shoot my transmissions with an IR gun routinely during operation. If you don't have a temperature gauge, I recommend the IR gun technique.
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:48 PM   #40
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RE: 120hp Lehman lube

" I shoot my transmissions with an IR gun routinely during operation. If you don't have a temperature gauge, I recommend the IR gun technique."

Hey Tom
Do you mark a spot on the tranny to which you hit with the IR gun so that you are making a consistent measurement each time? What area of the tranny do you measure heat ?
R.
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