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Old 11-04-2011, 12:58 PM   #41
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RE: 120 lehman oil usage

RickB

Thanks for the insight. Hawaii remains diesel powered with some wind picking up the slack. I'm surprised they have not gone LNG but capex is pretty high and risk money pretty scarce. An LNG plant could easily be barged in but the population base is too low for capital recovery.

The BC ferry system is serious about converting diesel to natural gas with tanks up high to lessen leak issues. The motivation is $20+ million per year in fuel savings. This assumes of course that methane gas will remain favorably priced to diesel. Washington is considering the same for their ferries.
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:05 PM   #42
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120 lehman oil usage

The fascinating thing about what Rick has been telling us is that it shows how little the average person knows other than their own world. I know a lot about the design, manufacturer, testing, and support of jetliners. It's the world I live in. But I see a bulk carrier or tanker or car carrier heading up Haro Strait for Vancouver and I have no clue whatsoever to what that world is like. There are plenty of assumptions and 25th-hand pieces of questionable information floating around, just as there is about the aerospace industry. So I have always found it fascinating to get a glimpse into one of these other worlds, even a brief one, from people I've met over the years who are locomotive drivers, crew members on RNLI lifeboats in the UK, lock operators on the Panama Canal, ocean-going tug captains, sugar mill managers, and so on. Most of us on this forum have had these kinds of opportunities from time to time. So now, when I see one of these ships enroute to or from Vancouver or the refineries in Anacortes and Cherry Point, I'll have a little bit of understanding about what's going on in their engine rooms. Thanks for the glimpse into the world of big-ship engine rooms, Rick.

PS-- Having lived in Hawaii from 1955 to 1979 with two years off for good behavior in the mid-60s, the power when I lived there was all from oil-fired boilers and steam turbines.* The water sytem got its pressure from a number of magnificent tile-lined plants containing one to three huge stationary steam engines turning immense flywheels that were connected to the pumps with belts.* The boilers were oil-fired.* The sugar mills used the same sort of steam power but their boilers were fired with bagasse, the dried, crushed sugar cane stalks that were left after the juice had been mashed out of them.* When I left the water system had been converted over to big electric motor-driven pumps but the electric power was still from steam turbines.* The island of Oahu had a large refinery out at Barber's Point that provided all the fuel for the island.* I don't know how the other islands got their fuel as there were no refineries on them.* I assume it was barged over from Oahu.

There have been attempts to generate power in Hawaii by using the temperature differential between deep water and the surface, and wind (according to my friends who still work over there) has made some inroads.* But wind is not an efficient way of generating large amounts of power.* I saw figures at Boeing that to use wind to power the island of Manhattan the entire state of Connicticut would have to be covered with wind generators--- border to border, no people no homes, no towns--- and the wind would have to blow 45 mph 24/7/365.* Not too practical.






-- Edited by Marin on Friday 4th of November 2011 02:18:15 PM
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Old 11-04-2011, 03:12 PM   #43
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RE: 120 lehman oil usage

It's generally pretty quiet when you see them on the Sound since they are in "maneuvering" mode which is kind of like being below 10,000 feet in an airliner cockpit ... it's not quite a "sterile" control room but there is only one job that needs to be done.

The first* two pictures are what you might see if you could look into the engine control room of a Washington State Ferry.

The next is what you would see in the ECR of a large cruise ship.

The next one is what you would see on a containership. Pardon the mess but they haven't had time to clean it up after some heavy maintenance.

The last one shows what you might see when well out at sea, a pump has failed and is being removed for a rebuild.

The faces have been blurred for the privacy of the people shown.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:14 PM   #44
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120 lehman oil usage

Rick can I ask a question that I am sure you will know the answer to.

To what depth can these large ships effectivly use their anchors. Off the north of Sydney we see lots of large carriers sitting off shore waiting their turn at the Newcastle port facilities. Given that the continental shelf he is not too far off shore I doubt they can be riding at anchors.


-- Edited by shrimp on Friday 4th of November 2011 08:16:04 PM
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Old 11-04-2011, 09:08 PM   #45
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120 lehman oil usage

It is common for the ships you see (bulkers) to carry 500 to 600 meters or more of chain. I have heard of ships anchoring in 90 meters of water but that is unusual in my experience. When I was on tankers we would anchor quite a lot but most of the time we were in water so shallow that running over our anchor and holing the bottom was a concern.

There is a class notation for tankers that anchor in deep water up to 120 meters and those ships will carry anywhere from 600 meters to over a 1000 meters of chain. The scope in that depth is 3 or 4 vs the 7 or so in water around 30 meters depth.

Dropping one of those* anchors was a real treat to watch, the foredeck disappeared in a cloud of rust dust and the whole ship shook and rattled as the chain rumbled out of the locker and hawse.


-- Edited by RickB on Friday 4th of November 2011 09:27:53 PM
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:06 PM   #46
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RE: 120 lehman oil usage

Rick--- Since this thread has derailed a bit anyway...... As you probably know a regular holding spot for tankers in this area is in the mouth of Padilla Bay between Bellingham Bay and Anacortes. There are almost always a couple of tankers waiting here plus one or two notch fuel barges. The water is proabably about 90 feet deep. I'm curious if ships experience the same things we do but on a much larger scale. If it's windy or there are strong currents, can they bury their anchors to the point where they have to use the ship to break it out? Or is the scale of the anchor to the bottom such that the anchors don't have to dig in all that much to hold?
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:10 AM   #47
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RE: 120 lehman oil usage

Hi Marin,

It's gonna really be derailed now that anchors are in the mix! We never knew (or as far as I know, particularly cared) if the anchor was buried or not. We knew when it held and that is what matters.

The anchors are sized for the ship as is the chain (see the link). The objective is to make sure that the shank lies flat on the bottom so that the flukes dig in. That is assured by enough scope and heavy enough chain. If the weather is forecast to be bad, another shackle or two is let out and the engine is put on standby. If it gets really bad the engine is used to hold in place or we leave the anchorage.

Unless I misunderstand your question, the ship is always used to "break out" since the weight of the chain is so high the ship moves up to the anchor by the reaction of the windlass and if there is a lot of chain out the engine is used to move up toward the anchor and minimize the strain. The windlass is sized to lift the chain and anchor, not the ship, and they have been known to explode under unusually severe loads.

When the chain is "up and down" it means the ship is directly over the anchor and any further lift will "weigh" it off the bottom and the ship can begin to maneuver.


http://www.eagle.org/eagleExternalPo...SVR_2011/part3
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:01 PM   #48
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RE: 120 lehman oil usage

Rick-- Thanks for the explanation and the link. What I was getting at is there have been times in our boat when our anchor was set well enough that to continue to haul on the rode with the windlass once the boat had been hauled up to be over the anchor seemed like it could tax the windlass more than we wanted to. So we use a line we have for this purpose with a chain hook on one end to secure the tight (all chain) rode to a heavily backed deck cleat. Then we slack off the windlass a bit, and the use the boat's normal motion in the water or give it a shot of reverse if there isn't enough motion to break the anchor out. Once the anchor is out, we remove the chain hook line and retrieve the anchor with the windlass.

So I was wondering if large ships ever do this--- secure the chain somehow to take the load off the windlass and then use the ship itself to break the anchor out if it looks like it's set too hard for the windlass alone to break it out. Or do they just haul away with the windlass until the anchor comes free or the windlass fails?
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:26 PM   #49
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RE: 120 lehman oil usage

Just like the fisherman's reel winch I'm sure the shipboard anchor winch is fully capable of breaking out the anchor and since the anchors they employ are not burying type anchors "breaking out" probably is'nt an issue either. But when you get older Marin you could get a hydraulic reel winch and not need to worry about your*yachtie winch being damaged pulling up the anchor. That's the main reason the fishermen use what they use is to make it quick and easy. They do'nt even set the anchor most of the time. They lower their ground tackle down and they raise it up in the morning. Many to most anchor every night and say to me "we can't be bothered w all that stuff you pleasure boat guys do". But the thing I'd like to know most about big ship anchoring is what size anchor do they use and how does it compare w our yachtie anchors. How many lbs of anchor to how many tons of vessel? I suspect their anchors are very small in this regard. And since they employ very low performance anchors like the Navy thpes their anchoring security must be very low. But I do'nt know since big ships are'nt my world I'm just say'in and guessing.
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:09 PM   #50
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RE: 120 lehman oil usage

Quote:
Marin wrote:
Or do they just haul away with the windlass until the anchor comes free or the windlass fails?
*Once the chain is up and down the shank is vertical and the flukes have rotated about 45 degrees so I guess you could say the anchor has broken out ... even if the water is really deep the windlass lifts it up with no more load than it is designed to take.

What risks windlass parts is a runaway anchor in deep water or shock loads if using the anchor as a brake.
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