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Old 06-21-2013, 08:36 PM   #21
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You guys do what you want. I already found my answer.
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Old 06-21-2013, 09:07 PM   #22
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From LarryM's post of the "white paper"

“At this point, we need to challenge the Holy Grail logic of a "single point of failure". Fuel filters are routine service items, not failure items; they don't break - most on-engine secondary fuel filters can be changed and the air bled out in less than 5 minutes. The average boat owner can't change a Racor element that fast, start to finish. If you're really serious about this argument, then you would never buy a boat with engines that have difficult fuel filter service issues. Same comment applies to primary filter physical locations.

Takes me less than a minute if I have to....that's where this guy lose me as "an authority"....
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:00 AM   #23
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While this is on fuel filters , did anyone else note

"A few owners disagreed with this advice and enjoyed the experience of changing Racors in deeply rolling, diesel sloshed, and blistering hot 135 degree engine rooms."

Guess ventilating the engine space to the engine assemblers specs was not part of the design?
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:01 AM   #24
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My engine space is most definitely NOT "diesel sloshed" ....or anything else sloshed.....just saying.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:36 AM   #25
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Amazing that so much ignorance persists regarding multi-stage filtration. Of course Larry M's post has it right...it is the definitive answer.
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Old 06-22-2013, 09:01 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquabelle View Post
Amazing that so much ignorance persists regarding multi-stage filtration. Of course Larry M's post has it right...it is the definitive answer.
Not even close...

Read Steve D'Antonio's article in Passagemaker...
Fuel Filter Micron Ratings Explained | PassageMaker

"Now, back to your mechanic’s comments. Technically, he’s right in that this is Yanmar’s advice, however, I don’t necessarily agree with Yanmar’s reasoning as to why they recommend 10 or 30 micron primary filter elements"

Steve D does believe in multi-stage but there's NO complete or even reasonable agreement as to why...and plenty of boaters running all 2 micron can verify that on low fuel burn engines...there's NO reasonable difference in maintenance and performance.

Here's from Yanmar help

FUEL HELP

"Spring when it's still cold, the 'summer' diesel will block 2 micron filters, causing the engine to slow or even stop. My experience with this was on high horsepower engines fitted with 2 micron primary fuel filters only. Fitting 10 micron filters solved the problem."

If you read it it says "high hp engines" and switching from 2 micron...yet nothing about how a 2 micron may not be suitable for all year round use or on lower hp engines.

Cummins doesn't even state what is "preferred micron rating" just that THEIR filters are OK...

": What is the difference between Absolute and Nominal micron rating?
A: Micron rating is the size of particles which are filtered out by filters at a certain efficiency. When this efficiency is at least 98.6%, we speak about absolute micron rating/filtration. Nominal micron rating is just a commercial trick for all efficiencies lower than 98.6%, meaning that for the same micron rating (for ex. 10 µ) in the case of nominal rating, not all particles will be captured in the filter as in the case of absolute micron rating. "

Frequently Asked Questions

yet here's another clip from Cummins

"Remember: 3 micron on-engine, stage 2 filters, should never be pre-filled."

Cummins Engines

So the guy from Alaska Diesel probably misquoted Steve D, can't change a RACOR in less than 5 minutes, thinks everyone has hot engine rooms full of diesel...and doesn't REALLY know what some of the BIG diesel engine manufature's recommend or really care about.

Sounds to me like a guy who has himself convinced he's right and his way is the only way....
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Old 06-22-2013, 09:19 AM   #27
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Scott's right... He usually is.

I had a long email conversation with an engineer and VP from Balwin during my fuel project a few years ago. Here are some of the key take a way's as related directly to this thread:

My question - Why isn't the micron filtration of your filters listed anywhere? Is there something I don't know about filtration that I should know? I have two Racor 500's with a 30m and 10m filter cartridges. I was hoping to have a 2m as the "secondary" CAV filter.

Micron ratings can be fairly complex. It is imperative to know the efficiency (Beta Ratio) associated with the given micron rating. When a company publishes a micron rating without this information, it does not tell the customer how efficient the filter is at the given particle size. For instance, if Company X rates a filter at 15 micron, they may be referencing a nominal micron rating which could mean the filter is anywhere between 50% and 90% efficient at that particle size. Please see the links below for more information about the micron ratings of filters.

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/10%20TSB's/89-5R3.pdf
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/10%20TSB's/04-2R1.pdf

Travis R. Winberg
Manager of Service Engineering
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Old 06-22-2013, 10:36 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperdude View Post
I have a floscan and prior to the filters on the engine which is 2 micron I use a 30.

Smaller than that causes bubbles in the fuel flow which screws up the flow scan.
That is my understanding,also.
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Old 06-22-2013, 10:46 AM   #29
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Jeez,

I thought I could put this subject to bed, but after reading psneeld's post, it got me thinking that maybe the 'fuel flow vs. filter capacity vs. filter effeciency equation' needed more investigation. I decided to go back to the original Racor - Parker Hannifin documentation I used for my research a couple of years ago to see if I had overlooked anything. Lo and behold, maybe EVERYONE IS RIGHT!! 2-Micron, 10-Micron or 30-Micron - you are all correct!

Racor clearly states that "If the secondary filter has a rating of two (2) microns, the primary filter should have a rating of (10) microns. If the secondary filter is rated at 10 microns, the primary should be 30."

But later in the document they state that in a marine environment, "If the installation can allow the use of a filter large enough, then a two micron filter can serve in a system as the only filter in that system."

Interestingly, throughout the document, there are distinctions made between marine, over-the-road and agricultural usage relating to fuel quality, cleanliness and filtration.

From this I think it might be safe to conclude that adequately sized, 2-Micron filters of the proper type can be used as Primary filters. There should be no adverse effects on the lift pumps, and the filters should have a reasonable service life.

Below are excerpts from the document where I have highlighted in red the two paragraphs that at first, seem to be contradictory, but ultimately seem to support both sides of this issue.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

RACOR Fuel Filtration

Chapter 8

PRIMARY FUEL FILTRATION

Purpose


Primary fuel filters play a very important role in the diesel fuel system. Their primary purpose is to protect the transfer pump and remove water contamination. Another purpose is to protect the secondary filter from much of the asphaltene carried by the fuel (Fig. 37).

The finer the level of filtration that the secondary filter is designed for, the more quickly it will choke from the asphaltene in the fuel. A properly specified primary filter will share the choking effect of asphaltene, thus allowing the secondary to be replaced less frequently.

If the secondary filter has a rating of two (2) microns, the primary filter should have a rating of (10) microns. If the secondary filter is rated at 10 microns, the primary should be 30. It is recommended that filters which combine water separation with the task of primary filtration be used instead of a simple primary filter.

It is desirable to choose a primary filter that will provide the lowest pressure drop or negative pressure at the outlet of the filter at rated flow when the filter element is new. No more than two inches of mercury (2”/hg) negative pressure should ever be allowed when a new primary filter is first installed.

Recently (1998), many engine and fuel injection system companies have begun to recommend that the fuel injection system be protected by a water separator. In fact, suppliers of common rail fuel injection systems demand that high efficiency water removal be part of the primary fuel system. The best value in meeting this demand is to install a primary filter that is designed to separate water on the suction side of the fuel system. Water separators are discussed in detail in Chapters 9 and 10.

Filtration Efficiency

Fuel filters are supplied for various applications and, therefore, there is a need for different levels of filtration efficiency in the removal or retention of particulates. The hydraulic industry uses a rating method that uses the term "Beta Ratio" to describe a filtration efficiency level. The diesel fuel filtration industry generally uses simple efficiency as the method of rating a fuel filter. Since there is no such thing as a fuel filter that provides absolute filtration of the particle sizes that are cause for concern, the
industry uses terms like 96% @ 5 microns. This term means, that when tested to SAE or ISO test methods the filter will retain 96% of all 5 micron size and larger particles.

Racor makes filters with various filtration efficiencies, but its standards for non-OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) are 2, 10, and 30 micron filter elements. The actual efficiency ratings for these are 98%, 95%, 90%, respectively. Racor also makes extensive use of a 7 and 20 micron filter medium which are used to meet certain engine manufacturer's requirements for a final filter and a primary filter.

Racor’s two micron filter medium should only be used in final or secondary filters where the fuel is first filtered by a primary filter. The primary filter for a two micron final filter should use a 10 micron medium. The exception in using two micron filter in a primary filter is to obtain high-efficiency water separation, and is usually used in marine applications where the fuel supply may be cleaner but also many contain water more often. If the installation can allow the use of a filter large enough, then a two micron filter can serve in a system as the only filter in that system.

The new high pressure common rail fuel injection systems require high efficiency in removal of small particles. The requirement is 95% for three micron particles. Racor fuel filters have a medium designed for these applications. Replacement elements should state, "For Use With Common Rail Fuel Injection Systems."

Dirt levels in fuel also direct the level of efficiency required. Since the filter removes a percentage of dirt particles, it follows that when a much greater amount of dirt is present in the fuel, a greater number of particles will pass through the filter. Diesel engines used in earth moving or agriculture should use fuel filters that have higher efficiency than those for over-the-road or marine use.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This publication is 68 pages long and is worth downloading and reading, or at least keeping as a resource.

Parker Brochure No. 7550

OK, now I don't know what filter element I will use next time I change my own filters. 56hp, how many gph, yada yada yada . . . .

I'll worry about this another day. I'm going boating now!! Have a great day all.

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Old 06-22-2013, 11:14 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperdude View Post
I have a floscan and prior to the filters on the engine which is 2 micron I use a 30.

Smaller than that causes bubbles in the fuel flow which screws up the flow scan.
Skipperdude,

I found this in a whitepaper.

"Pressure drop through a fuel filter or water separator is a function of flow rate vs. the restriction of the flow path through the unit. The pressure drop on vacuum side installations is very critical due to the vaporization
or boiling point of fuel."

"Diesel fuel begins to vaporize at a negative pressure as low as 10 inches of mercury if the fuel is hot. Vapor in the fuel is related to the term “fuel starvation” and the lack of solid fuel will result in poor engine performance
or actual engine shut down."


It would seem that this same vaporization, if present, could cause problems with your Floscan sensor. Is it possible that your primary filter is not large enough, or perhaps you have a small air leak between the primary filter and the lift pump that only occurs at higher vacuum levels. Have you measured the vacuum level after changing the filter cartridge? Even with a 30-Micron element, when new, it should always be under 2”/hg. according to Racor.

OK, this time I really am going boating . . . . outta here.

Larry
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Old 06-22-2013, 01:04 PM   #31
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With a very high flowing engine like a Detroit the 2 does fine , as in a few hours all the fuel has been filtered a couple of times.

So on the second day of a cruise the only gropsh comes from the dock fuel pump and a Baja will catch most of that , before it gets in the tank.

The docks that complain most about the slow fill frequently have the worst fuel.

The 30 to 10 , or 10 to 2 seems like the only virtue is both filters will get used not just one.

That increases the surface area , and the cost is less as both should have PM before any plugging.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:55 AM   #32
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Who started this again? Oh, Wxx3... that's OK, it's always a fun time. Now let's get to guns on board too. :-)
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:56 AM   #33
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A Barrett 50 cal on my boat.
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