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Old 01-09-2012, 05:28 AM   #21
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

"Do you think the engine and injection system manufacturers might know what works and doesn't waste money?"


Sure they do, but there is a huge difference between a big truck a tug or commercial operating boat.

The usual yachtie does 100-200 hours in a good year , not operate daily or 24/7.

The cost of filtering may be a concern when you run thru 1,000G a day , but for most rec vessels the filters are changed annually at best.

The cost of a $10 Raycore is nothing to the rec boater, compared to the horror of bleeding a system that required a filter change while away from the dock..

Commercials use enough fuel that years old fuel, and the tank gunk from decades of minor use are seldom a problem.

The gov mandate to require veggi oil in diesel , which will strip gunk from tank walls ,is a horror for old underused fuel tanks.

An extra $10 filter or two per year , does not "waste money" for most rec boaters..
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Old 01-09-2012, 06:15 AM   #22
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

A piece of junk doesn't know if it is in a recreational trawler fuel line or a tugboat fuel line. But since you mentioned changing filters while underway, that little joy seems to be more prevalent on this forum than on commercial boats in similar coastwise service.

My point is that the engine and injection system manufacturer have a much greater investment in keeping their products working reliably than a recreational user. If they thought a 2 micron filter provided any advantage they would use them.

I have yet to read about anyone having much concern for their oil filter and if particulates get through that one they can do more expensive damage much quicker than the fuel filters. Does anyone even know the micron rating of their oil filters? No? H'mmm ... does that mean we think the engine manufacturer knows what it is talking about with regard to lube oil but has it all wrong about fuel?

What do you think the RNLI boats do for filtering? They operate even less than the average yachtie and their fuel tanks get stirred up a lot more when they do go out.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:11 PM   #23
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

What do you think the RNLI boats do for filtering?

My guess would be like a fire truck does,

Damn good PM.
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Old 01-09-2012, 03:05 PM   #24
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Didn't think about remoting the engine filter, I'll check into that.* Thanks!
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Old 01-09-2012, 08:07 PM   #25
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

2 Microns?? Makes you wonder who started this one?**Does anyone know of*any boat engine manufacture who, in writing, recommends 2 micron fuel filtration?* Or is this just the old adage, "If a little bit is good, then a lot more is has got to be better!"

It's like Jiffy Lube who recommends 3,000 mile oil changes on all cars and then tells you your manufacture recommends it, (even though they don't!!)* How many people open the owners manual and read what the manufacture actually recommends.* My Chrysler is 7,500 miles normal use.

*
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:54 PM   #26
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
Edelweiss wrote:2 Microns?? Makes you wonder who started this one?**Does anyone know of*any boat engine manufacture who, in writing, recommends 2 micron fuel filtration?* Or is this just the old adage, "If a little bit is good, then a lot more is has got to be better!"
*I'm not sure what the one on my 6LYA is but the final on the 4JHE was a 2 micron as supplied by Yanmar.* In addition to the 2 microns it is supposed to be impregnated with a lube for the injection pump as well.* This from the mouths of the folks at a*Mack Boring training class.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:56 PM   #27
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
RickB wrote:
The fuel filter on the RR engine that powers Marin's 787 is 10 micron (40 micron absolute)
If I had a 787 it would be powered by GE engines, thank you very*much.* I have no idea what GE's filtration requirement is but I'm guessing it's not much different or any different*than RR's.
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Old 01-09-2012, 10:59 PM   #28
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
Edelweiss wrote:
How many people open the owners manual and read what the manufacture actually recommends.*
*I do but I still change the oil and filter every 3,000 miles regardless of what the manual says.* I do this because a) oil and filters are cheap in the quantities that I use them in,*and b) I've yet to have a mechanic--- auto, aviation, or marine--- tell me that fresh oil is bad for an engine.
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Old 01-10-2012, 04:51 AM   #29
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

2 microns is the nominal (read usual) size filtered , 10X bigger debris going thru is possible , that's why multiple filters are in line.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:12 AM   #30
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
Edelweiss wrote:
2 Microns?? Makes you wonder who started this one?**Does anyone know of*any boat engine manufacture who, in writing, recommends 2 micron fuel filtration?* Or is this just the old adage, "If a little bit is good, then a lot more is has got to be better!"

It's like Jiffy Lube who recommends 3,000 mile oil changes on all cars and then tells you your manufacture recommends it, (even though they don't!!)* How many people open the owners manual and read what the manufacture actually recommends.* My Chrysler is 7,500 miles normal use.

*
*Makes one wonder why most of the Racor filters listed in the West Marine catalog are 2 micros.
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Old 01-10-2012, 12:37 PM   #31
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
markpierce wrote:*Makes one wonder why most of the Racor filters listed in the West Marine catalog are 2 micros.
For the same reason Racor sells a "fuel polisher" that flows 4 gallons per*hour ... because people will buy them.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:29 PM   #32
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
RickB wrote:markpierce wrote:*Makes one wonder why most of the Racor filters listed in the West Marine catalog are 2 micros.
For the same reason Racor sells a "fuel polisher" that flows 4 gallons per*hour ... because people will buy them.

*You are 110% correct.* If it is in demand and has a turn over they*(West Marine) will*stock and sell it.* Let me modify that, they will*built a knock off of it then raise the price of the original and sell their West branded one for what the original one sold for.* If it is good for you or not is not in their business model.* And maybe it shouldn't be.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:39 PM   #33
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Good response!
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:35 PM   #34
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Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
RickB wrote:markpierce wrote:*Makes one wonder why most of the Racor filters listed in the West Marine catalog are 2 micros.
For the same reason Racor sells a "fuel polisher" that flows 4 gallons per*hour ... because people will buy them.

*Hmmm*- Frightening thought,*but probably true!!

ps:*4JHE Yanmar, per my service manual, should have come with a 129470-55700 fuel filter element, but I suppose someone could have spun a different*one on?




-- Edited by Edelweiss on Tuesday 10th of January 2012 09:47:06 PM
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Old 01-10-2012, 09:43 PM   #35
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
Edelweiss wrote:RickB wrote:markpierce wrote:*Makes one wonder why most of the Racor filters listed in the West Marine catalog are 2 micros.
For the same reason Racor sells a "fuel polisher" that flows 4 gallons per*hour ... because people will buy them.

*Hmmm*- Frightening thought,*but probably true!!

ps:*4JHE Yanmar, per my service manual, should have come with a 129470-55700 fuel filter element, but I suppose someone could have spun a different*one on?



*

You are correct.

Fuel Yanmar filter 129470-55702.* That is a 2 micron filter with a product impregnated into it to lube the injection pump according to Mack Boring.

*
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:38 PM   #36
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Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
You are correct.
Fuel Yanmar filter 129470-55702.* That is a 2 micron filter with a product impregnated into it to lube the injection pump according to Mack Boring.

*

*The filter guide I have shows it's 5 micron


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Wednesday 11th of January 2012 12:24:08 AM
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:21 AM   #37
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
Edelweiss wrote:You are correct.
Fuel Yanmar filter 129470-55702.* That is a 2 micron filter with a product impregnated into it to lube the injection pump according to Mack Boring.

*

*The filter guide I have shows it's 5 micron

*

*That*may well be correct.* The issue or question*at the school was why not put a 2 micron in the primary*Racor and be done with it.* The instructor said that the primary has to be a 30 micron to allow adequate fuel flow and the final filter on the engine*will take care of the rest. I may have confused the 2 from the Racor as being what the final was or is.

He then went into the spill about the impregnated chemical that lubes the injection pump.* He said that the final filter was good for 100 hours or one year which ever comes first.* The one year is due to the rate at which the chemical leaches into the fuel overtime. At the end of one year there will not be any remaining to lube the pump.* So I guess that if the boat sits for two months the first fuel to the pump would have a more concentrated amount of lube in it than the rest of the day.

To be truthful it sounded like BS but hey I paid for the class and as in any class sponsored buy someone they do have an axe to grind.* I feel as long as what they tell you doesn't hurt your engine then you are fine. So changing the final filter every year with the factory filter didn't seem like it would, extra lube or not. I'm a believer of using OEM filters and parts anyway.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:10 AM   #38
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

"The instructor said that the primary has to be a 30 micron to allow adequate fuel flow ..."

Flow rate requirements*can be handled by using a physically larger element.*A too-small 30 micron element is worse than a marginal sized 2 micron element.

It is entirely*possible to install a single large 2 micron filter at the tank outlet and leave the OEM engine filters as delivered.

Whether it is practical or not is up to the user.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:34 AM   #39
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RE: Is 10 micron enough?

Quote:
RickB wrote:
"The instructor said that the primary has to be a 30 micron to allow adequate fuel flow ..."

Flow rate requirements*can be handled by using a physically larger element.*A too-small 30 micron element is worse than a marginal sized 2 micron element.

It is entirely*possible to install a single large 2 micron filter at the tank outlet and leave the OEM engine filters as delivered.

Whether it is practical or not is up to the user.
*Understood.* The*small filter will never be able to*deliver the correct amount of fuel but the large one will as long as the 2 micron filter is clean.* I questioned*(to my self)*the statement being as*the Racor in question was way over rated for the flow rate of the Yanmar it was covering.* But the instructors do have to talk in generalities sometime*when they speak to a class.* Otherwise it will take half a day on just the flow rate of a specific filter.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:16 AM   #40
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Is 10 micron enough?

The on engine filter can be called both a 2 and 5 micron rating dependent upon how they apply the most important criteria "beta number." A stamped 2u filter with a beta of 80 means 80% of the 2u and over particles*are trapped, 95 - 99% (pick a number) *of the 5u and over are trapped and* 99.9 of the 10u and larger trapped. Some filters are called 2u but they*have a 60% (or some such lower value)*beta number. These are pure junk but how do you know when only 2u is stamped on the filter?

The engine manufacturers will*spec out a complete beta profile for all sizes passed and when sourcing filters pass this profile on to the supplier as a "mandate." This is why OEM fuel filters are best used, even though more expensive in most cases. And too, this is why the OEM counter guys really don't know the micron size but somewhere in the organization they better know the beta number.* Especially if you have a TierII / III engine under warranty. In my years of experience with very large Cat equipment, it was uncommon to have a recall on fuel filters for improper sizing - but it can happen. Cat checks their filter suppliers on a random basis to insure quality control. There is a standard test for establishing beta numbers.

The shape of the particle can have an influence on % passing too. PhD thesis are done on this subject, for all types of filtering applications. Most beta tests are done on rounded and elongated particles to insure quality control and proper engineered design of the filter media. Picture a 2u round pebble compared to a 2u x20u pebble. Under a microscope they are indeed pebbbles or rocks. But on many 2u stamped filters they both pass. So engineered layering (more expensive) of the filter media is critical, to allow only say a 2u x 5u to pass.

But what causes more damage, a poor 2u filter or water in the fuel. Likely the latter.

*

*



-- Edited by sunchaser on Wednesday 11th of January 2012 10:17:18 AM


-- Edited by sunchaser on Wednesday 11th of January 2012 10:19:03 AM
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